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| Circle B and Diamond B (299615) | |
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| (299626) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 20 14:06:59 2006, in response to Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Sun Aug 20 13:58:59 2006. It's total bullshit. We seem to have a wikivandal lurking around the transit pages there. |
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| (299634) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 20 14:32:05 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 20 14:06:59 2006. I read that on there also..Looks like somebody wants that type of service so bad,that they wrote it in as fact. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (299638) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 20 14:40:05 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 20 14:32:05 2006. Yup. 2 years ago someone posted to railroad.net that the M7's were going to be recalled and added a very complicated contingency plan calling for R46's going to the LIRR. It was long and detailed, so much so that a few people actually took it seriously. Asperger's in action, IMHO. |
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| (299639) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 20 15:06:25 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 20 14:40:05 2006. LOL...! |
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| (299648) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Sun Aug 20 15:34:18 2006, in response to Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Sun Aug 20 13:58:59 2006. What about plans to bring the W back to Coney Island? Is that true or false. I heard this from a Coney Island aquaintance of mine that in 2 years, this will happen. |
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| (299650) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sun Aug 20 15:36:26 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Sun Aug 20 15:34:18 2006. It's all BS. I remember hearing that the Q Diamond would return in 2006. |
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| (299654) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Sun Aug 20 16:13:19 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sun Aug 20 15:36:26 2006. Well I do think that the <5> diamond and because that actually makes sense for those routes to be designated that way. That is a clear way to differentiate the two different lines especially on the map. Will the diamond on the map for rush hour braqnches ever return? I hate the Dotted line that they use today. How would a real life train show a dotted line denoting that it is a 5 trian to Nereid avenue? Its just stupid.The only lines the dotted line is good for is the B and G as they are extentions that dont run at the same time. |
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| (300060) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 04:22:41 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Sun Aug 20 16:13:19 2006. Uh, so is the (5) rush hour extensions.They reclassified the "diamond" to represent express service on a line in addition to local service represented by the same letter or number. It makes perfect sense. |
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| (300150) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Aug 21 11:21:20 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 04:22:41 2006. The current use of diamonds makes sense, but the (5) service pattern/signage does not. |
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| (300158) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 21 11:58:42 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 04:22:41 2006. Only because the diamond's original purpose (to denote rush hour only lines) is not really needed today. Back in 1979, many routes ran only during rush hours (QB, CC), or had diverging rush hour routes (B, N, RR). |
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| (300369) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Mon Aug 21 19:57:07 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 04:22:41 2006. I know they reclassified it. WHat I am trying to say is that it doesnt make as much sense as it used to and they shouild reclassify it again back to the way it was.I mean to say that the 5 diamond and A diamond should be brought back because they are not line extentions that run at different times or speical times. They are branches that run at the same time. This elimination of the diamond for alternate terminuses for rush hours confuses so many riders. |
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| (300455) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 23:59:17 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Aug 21 11:21:20 2006. Why not? Rush hours, the (5) trains are extended to Brooklyn College - Flatbush Avenue, and trains operating in the peak direction are express in the Bronx. Also, some (5) trains operate to/from Nereid Avenue - 238 Street. |
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| (300473) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Tue Aug 22 02:20:24 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 23:59:17 2006. It was useful to have the diamond to distinguish 238 trains from Dyre trains. That use of the diamond was fully consistent with the present use, so I don't understand why it was discontinued.Also, most trains from 238 run to Utica rather than Flatbush. The map doesn't show the Utica runs at all, perhaps because they're in the reverse-peak direction. |
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| (300511) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Tue Aug 22 07:10:13 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 21 23:59:17 2006. Because there are four different services running at once (really more if you count the oddballs like the handful of 238-BG, BG-180, Utica-180, or New Lots runs) using the same route designation.I would like to see the 238 and Dyre services get separate numbers, with one specifically going to Flatbush and the other to Utica (or New Lots). |
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| (300569) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Tue Aug 22 10:10:35 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Tue Aug 22 07:10:13 2006. I think the diamond should just be reintroduced and that would solve everything. IM glad some of you understand what I was trying to say and agree that the diamond is better than the dotted line on the map. |
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| (300729) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 22 18:15:24 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Tue Aug 22 10:10:35 2006. What would actually be better than the use of the diamond is a reinroduction of the single letter/double letter sysyem to the B Division. The IND Division was the first to use the system in which single letters denoted express trains and double letters denoted local trains. Trains which ran express anywhere on their route carried the single letter of an express. This explains why the E and F services carried the single letter designations even though they ran local on their Manhattan mainlines. They both ran express in Queens hence the single letter designations. This would eliminate a lot of confusion and enable NYCT to relaese currently used letters for new services. Under the return to the old system, the C would become a AA and would of course replace the A service during the midnight when there is no 8 Av/Fulton express service. The V would be designated a FF, the W would be a NN and other local services would change to such designations as GG, JJ, LL, MM and RR. Also the original IND designations were based on the north end branch line and the Manhattan trunk line. Thus A/AA was Wash hts/8 Av, B/BB was Wash Hts/6 Av, E/EE was Qns/8 Av and F/FF was Qns/6 Av regardless of what the lines didi at the opposite end. In theory, the E could operate via Houston St to Church Av (which it once did) or Stl, the F could could operate via 8 Av and out to Fulton St etc. The BM lines, when they received letters, based their combinations on the south end branch line and their Manhattan trunk line although trying to superimpose an IND system if train designations on the BMT was really not as successful since the T West end Exp ran via Bway while the TT West End Loval ran via Nassau St. The only new designations that would be required would be for the Brighton express since it cannot under the proper IND system be called a B since it does not originate in Wash Hts nor can it be called a DD since it operates exp on 6 Av and the Brighton Line. The TA's excuse is that since the numbered lines don't have the single/double difference, the lettered lines shouldn't either.If these "educated fools" at the MTA studied their history, they would know that when the BMT first started using numbers to describe their routes in the 1920s with the D types, both locals and expresses of any given line carried the same number and it was up to the riding publc to read whether the sign read 1/Brighton Exp ir 1/Brighton Lcl. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with a local and an express on the same identical route using the same number as long as the riding public is intelligent enought to READ the signs. If the largely uneducated immigrant population of NYC could tell the difference between a Lexington Av Exp and a Lexington Av Lcl, then I'm sure that the present better educated yuppie population of NY that we have today should be able to do likewise. The IRT did not even use numbers until the arrival of the R-12s in 1948 and even then the IRT lines were not officialy referred to by numbers until the BMT/IND merger of 1967. |
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| (300943) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Aug 22 23:29:48 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Tue Aug 22 07:10:13 2006. "I would like to see the 238 and Dyre services get separate numbers, with one specifically going to Flatbush and the other to Utica (or New Lots)."On that same note, I'd like to see the Far Rockaway and Lefferts Blvd A services get separate letters - perhaps retaining A for the Far Rock service and resurrecting K for the Lefferts Blvd trains. |
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| (300946) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Aug 22 23:36:26 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 22 18:15:24 2006. Yes, but what about the A train which has two different southern terminals seven days a week? I think in that case, a sepatate letter should be used to distinguish Far Rockaway and Lefferts trains. I think the Lefferts Blvd A train should become the K train and the Far Rock service should remain the A train. |
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| (301054) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #1 Brighton Exp Bob on Wed Aug 23 08:24:12 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Aug 22 23:36:26 2006. I have saying this for years, and the Rockaway Pkwy Rush Hour the H |
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| (301106) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Aug 23 10:46:51 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 22 18:15:24 2006. One reason why the double letters will not return: the R-32s/R-38s and their ridiculous "cyclops" signs. Now once the 32s and 38s are gone in a few years... |
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| (301129) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 23 11:41:10 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 22 18:15:24 2006. The BMT number code never really caught on because most of its rolling stock had no bulkhead signs. Plus it became common practice to refer to Southern Division lines by their titles: Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, Culver, etc. |
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| (301131) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Wed Aug 23 11:45:11 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Aug 23 10:46:51 2006. R44, R46, R143, and R160 have the same problem. |
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| (301209) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Aug 23 15:59:55 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Wed Aug 23 11:45:11 2006. Oops, hadn't thought about the LCD/LED side signs.You forgot the 142/142A also. |
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| (301237) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Aug 23 16:49:36 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Aug 23 15:59:55 2006. Why would they need to display double letters? |
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| (301239) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Wed Aug 23 16:51:14 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Aug 23 15:59:55 2006. Yeah but those are A Division. He didn't mention anything about double-numbers (although those would've been nice too...(15)(16)(17) instead of <5><6><7> |
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| (301327) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Aug 23 20:21:41 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Wed Aug 23 16:51:14 2006. Everynow and then, someone writing to forums such as these, wishes to re-introduce ideas that would basically cause major confusion for the riders. The idea to re-introduce double letters, or numbers higher than 10 for the "IRT" lines is such an example.Some have noted that the A line has multiple terminals in Queens, and for that reason, there should be a different designation for each variation, A for 207th - Lefferts, A' for 207th - Far Rockaway, and so on. Or the more recent idea to call the CC, the AA, or the Pelham Bay express the #8, or branches of the #5 - the #10, etc. Right now on the 8th Avenue line the A, C and E trains run. Those who need the A train heading into Manhattan, really do not care what terminal the train originated from. Try saying to the riders that this is an "A-1 train that makes the same stops in Manhattan as the A train" will confuse many riders. Only those riders who need one of the branch points of the A route really care which terminal the A train goes to. Similarly riders in Brooklyn traveling to Manhattan do not really care what the terminals of the #4 or #5 lines are. Making each variation - #4, #5, #10, #12, #13 its own route - when the trains travel to the same basic terminals as their counterparts - would make for a very confusing set of maps and signage. Please note that when the E and EE ran, they were two completely separate lines with different terminals on each end. During a major portion of its history, the E train ran express during the rush hours on the 8th Avenue line and in Brooklyn along Fulton Street. By having a "simpler" set of routes that are fairly consistent, the riders can have confidence about the transit services. Imagine, the following directions, "During the rush hours take either the #6 or the #8 to 96th Street, but at night take the #10 train, but after midnight and on weekends you can take the #4, the #10, and the #14." Contrast those directions with "Take the #6 to 96th Street, after midnight the #4 also stops there." While some of us "transit nuts" become excited about all of the variations possible on each of the lines, the regular riders simply want to get to their destinations. Mike |
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| (301345) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #1 Brighton Exp Bob on Wed Aug 23 20:49:14 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Michael549 on Wed Aug 23 20:21:41 2006. Yes but on the A Train Brrooklyn-Queens Bound, they should have different letters for the Different Terminals. A-Far Rockaway K-Lefferts, H-Rockawayt Park. It was ok years ago with colored marker lights and head signs, but how many times has a passenger ran for a train, only to get to it and find out it is not going where they want to in Queens.Or maybe turn the C into a Express terminate at Lefferts, and put the K as the Local |
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| (301358) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Wed Aug 23 21:22:06 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Michael549 on Wed Aug 23 20:21:41 2006. But by that logic we could just get rid of letters and numbers altogether and just go with colors.The question is where do you draw the line? |
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| (301387) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Wed Aug 23 22:10:31 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Michael549 on Wed Aug 23 20:21:41 2006. BTW you wouldn't happen to be Michael Calagno would you? |
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| (301438) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 23 23:13:58 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by #1 Brighton Exp Bob on Wed Aug 23 20:49:14 2006. Exactly, Bob. When R1-9's, R10's and pre-GOH R38's ran on the A, it was easy to know where your train was headed because they had head signs that displayed the train's last stop. But now the Arnines and R10's are long gone and the post-GOH R38's and R44's only display an A up front, so you have to wait till at least the first car is in the station (so you can see its side signs) before you know if it's the A train that you need to take. Changing one of those A trains to a K would help in this case. |
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| (301441) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by L Train on Wed Aug 23 23:17:48 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by Channel 7 Eyewitness News on Tue Aug 22 10:10:35 2006. The diamond was inconsistent in what it meant. It meant either peak direction express service or a rush hour extension. It had to be done away with in most cases. I don't get what's so hard in distinguishing "238st-Nereid Avenue" from "Dyre Avenue". |
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| (301444) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 23 23:18:25 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by #1 Brighton Exp Bob on Wed Aug 23 08:24:12 2006. Agreed, although I think the TA could have also still used H for the Rockaway Park Shuttle, even after they eliminated the round-robin Rockaway Shuttle service in 1993. |
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| (301446) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 23 23:23:57 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by L Train on Wed Aug 23 23:17:48 2006. You now have to wait until at least the first car is in the station in order to know if the 5 is going to Dyre or 238th, because you must look at the side signs to tell.But at the same time, I don't think too many people pay attention to the shape that frames the letter or number - they just look at the number. There could be a pentagon framing the 5 and people still won't know where the train is going. I remember seeing diamond-5 Redbird trains signed for Dyre Avenue. |
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| (301459) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k6 on Thu Aug 24 00:02:02 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 23 23:18:25 2006. they still do internally use (H) |
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| (301498) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Aug 24 02:25:18 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by #1 Brighton Exp Bob on Wed Aug 23 20:49:14 2006. Unless they're running for this train at Rockaway Boulevard (which should feature DeKalb-style platform signage) or Broad Channel, what difference does it make if their train isn't going where they are? If it's not, they can get off at the next stop and wait for the proper train there.For the vast majority of the passengers, the various versions of the A are identical. IMO, they should keep a single letter designation. |
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| (301503) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Aug 24 03:02:03 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by L Train on Wed Aug 23 23:17:48 2006. Its usage on the map was inconsistent with its usage on the trains.Only one -- IMO, the map's -- needed to be eliminated. |
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| (301560) | |
Re: Circle B and Diamond B |
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Posted by #1 Brighton Exp Bob on Thu Aug 24 07:15:01 2006, in response to Re: Circle B and Diamond B, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 23 23:13:58 2006. There have been many times in the past, when I was going to JFK, with baggage, coming down the stairs, saw the A Train, and ran for it, then after I got to the 1st car, it was going to Lefferts, not Far Rockaway, At least when they had R1-10s and R38s, you had head signs and marker lights.Also when I used to visit my brother up in Yorktown Hts, I was told that taking a local out of Croton-Harmon to Marble Hill during Peak Hours was half the price as going all the way into GCT, They could have had a sign on the train saying Local to GCT or Express |
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