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DC rag article on rail "Foamers"

Posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006

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DC Examiner Article on rail "Foamers".

The Examiner is the right-leaning of the free DC papers.

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(288909)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 14:40:50 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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Whoa!

others across the country are being started by current or former employees who may have access to sensitive information.

Examples?

“It’s a problem,” [Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for Metropolitan Transportation Authority] said. “They post stuff on their Web sites that we won’t even talk to reporters about.”

Such as?? He probably means stupid stuff that would embarrass the MTA, but which isn't really that sensitive.

Fleuranges said, extremely sensitive information has appeared regularly on Web sites.

Extremely sensitive??? Such as???

“We’ve tried to [go] after them...” he said.

When? I don't recall anyone within this community being asked to take info down.

“...there are some First Amendment rights at issue here,” he said. “A lot of the information is being gleaned from public documents, so we have not been very successful in stopping them.”

DUH! If it is in public documents then YOU released it to the public, not the "foamer" webmasters!

Fleuranges said if these hobbyists “truly love transit as they portend,” they would be more careful about what they publish.

WOW.

---------

This is some pretty bad journalism.

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(288910)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 28 14:47:28 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 14:40:50 2006.

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This is some pretty bad journalism.

It's not the article. It's Flueranges who's saying some of the most incredibly stupid stuff I've ever heard.

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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It

(288912)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 14:51:06 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 28 14:47:28 2006.

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IAWTP.

For example, Tangherlini conducts a tour open to the public and then this guy complains that the information was made public?

Idiotic.

And I don't think it was an accident that the "foamer" they identified has the name "Omari." Hint, hint.

Ordinarily July/August are slow news months when you might expect to see crap like this (maybe written by an intern), but with everything going on in Washington these days, you'd really think that even crappy free papers had something better to write about.

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(288916)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 15:03:47 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 14:51:06 2006.

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you'd really think that even crappy free papers had something better to write about


In general, no, they don't have anything better to write about!

Consider that browsing the web was a major part of the "research" for this article. I thought that kind of journalism had disappeared somewhere around 1996 or so.

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(288924)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 15:10:32 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 28 14:47:28 2006.

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It IS the article. The article consists entirely of quotes with almost nothing to back them up. If the reporter/author had done his job, the article would never have been written since it is so much BS.

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(288929)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 15:15:09 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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Fleuranges is just doing his job. He's the spokesperson - meaning it's his job to relay what senuior managers want him to say. What Fleuranges himself thinks personally is not relevant to his bosses.

The paper should have explained the term "foamer" better, and o course not every rail enthusiast is a foamer (eve if this particular website right here, Subchat, does indeed attract foamers).





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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 15:31:37 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 15:15:09 2006.

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Fleuranges is just doing his job.

Fine Howard and Fine never said he wasn't.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 15:37:05 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 15:15:09 2006.

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Making transparently idiotic and internally contradictory statements usually is not in people's job descriptions (unless you occupy the big house about a mile south from where I live).

Nor is making the boss (in this case, Tangherlini) look silly. You don't complain to the press that your boss led a public tour that gave away information that you dont want to see in public hands.


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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 15:38:14 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 15:03:47 2006.

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On the contrary -- the Web made it possible.

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(288944)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 15:39:19 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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And shouldn't it be Howard, Fine, and Howard? Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 16:03:42 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 15:37:05 2006.

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"Making transparently idiotic and internally contradictory statements usually is not in people's job descriptions (unless you occupy the big house about a mile south from where I live)."

Not true. It's part of working for any government agency in that job description. White House, Governor's Mansion, Gracie Mansion, whatever. Of course the White House Press secretary has to get really good at keeping a straight face...




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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by L Train on Fri Jul 28 16:06:51 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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Paul Fleuranges sold out. I remember when he used to do the Transit Report (now In Transit). He's alienating the same people that watched that show every week. When did railfans become terrorists?

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 16:13:51 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by L Train on Fri Jul 28 16:06:51 2006.

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He didn't sell out. That's a very silly comment to make. He doesn't owe railbuffs anything more than anyone else.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jul 28 17:53:28 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 14:40:50 2006.

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Paul is a sellout....and a FOAMER HIMSELF.

He's a WHORE that pimped himself out to the highest bidder.

He was humble as a church mouse when he worked for NY1 NEWS...

Now..He's so full of crap..its spilling out of his socks.

He sucks royal ass.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jul 28 17:59:19 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jul 28 15:38:14 2006.

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Long Live The WEB!

Screw Paul Fleuranges...!

He's a FOAMER HIMSELF.

Rode the subways ALL THE TIME..Standing at the RAILFAN WINDOW...
I've SEEN HIM!

Foamer my ass...

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(289032)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 28 18:17:07 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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Meh, more pandering to the ignorance and fear crowd. "Wow, these guys are showing photos of where stuff is". Duh, everyone knows where stuff is. Not only that, but the bad guys don't need this stuff to plan attacks. The formula is [crowded place] + [your weapon here] = terrorist act. A simple ride or 2 on [your system here] over a day or 2 will reveal exactly where the hot spots are.

I figure about half of America thinks that a total lockdown would protect us from the bad guys. Sorry, but clamping down on everything makes Osama the victor and earns him "mission accomplished".

your pal,
Fred

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by JohnL on Fri Jul 28 18:32:49 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 28 18:17:07 2006.

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I figure about half of America thinks that a total lockdown would protect us from the bad guys.

Except for themselves, of course! They need to get to WalMart from the doublewide to buy their Depends!

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by JohnL on Fri Jul 28 18:41:26 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 16:13:51 2006.

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He didn’t sell out. That's a very silly comment to make.

Pot, kettle, black.

Assuming that the information presented in other posts in this thread is correct (and I can’t personally confirm or deny it) then:

Fleuranges went from being a reporter, whose job it was to ascertain facts and distinguish them from government bulls**t to being a purveyor of said bulls**t

I think that comes within the purview of “sellout”. If you don’t think so, please provide a different suitable adjective.

Please think, Ron, before you just regurgitate the official line. Perhaps you need to improve your education: a course in critical thinking would help.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 28 19:01:05 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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Officials said they do regularly patrol the Web for sensitive information.

People are getting paid to look at pictures of trains/stations on different websites. Sounds like easy money to me.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 28 19:03:41 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 28 18:17:07 2006.

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IAWTP

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by FLASH GORDON on Fri Jul 28 20:06:12 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 14:40:50 2006.

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Your just getting what you deserve for thousands of posts on what how
to get into places and ware things are and things that happen.
I guess they don't think your worth anything as spyies anymore so its time to get rid of you.
In time the NWO will be coming for you guys to put you away as
suppliers of info for EL Q.
FLASH GORDON

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by FLASH GORDON on Fri Jul 28 20:09:06 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by Easy on Fri Jul 28 19:01:05 2006.

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And guess who pays for it.
FLASH GORDON

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by JohnL on Fri Jul 28 20:14:30 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by FLASH GORDON on Fri Jul 28 20:06:12 2006.

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I guess they don't think your worth anything as spyies anymore so its time to get rid of you.
In time the NWO will be coming for you guys to put you away as
suppliers of info for EL Q.


Please translate this paragraph into English.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by BMTLines on Fri Jul 28 21:08:07 2006, in response to DC rag article on rail "Foamers", posted by Fine Howard and Fine on Fri Jul 28 14:00:08 2006.

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“It’s a problem,” Fleuranges said. “They post stuff on their Web sites that we won’t even talk to reporters about.”

Like 76th Street!

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by FLASH GORDON on Fri Jul 28 21:54:14 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by BMTLines on Fri Jul 28 21:08:07 2006.

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SECOND AVE,NEXT FAIR RASE,SERVICE CUTS.THE TUNNEL TO STATEN ISLAND.
WHAT IT SAYS ON THE BATHROOM WALLS IN JAY STREET.
THE JAY STREET LOCKER ROOM BUNNY PROGRAM.
FLASH GORDON

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 22:31:04 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Edwards! on Fri Jul 28 17:53:28 2006.

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Yawn...

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 22:36:51 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by JohnL on Fri Jul 28 18:41:26 2006.

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"I think that comes within the purview of “sellout”. "

So every advertising professional and every PR executiver and every marketer in the world is a sellout. Every politician is a sellout. Every attorney is a sellout. Every pharmaceutical executive is a sellout. Every consultant is a sellout.

"Please think, Ron, before you just regurgitate the official line. "

Ididn't say I agreed with what he said. I said that I think what you posted was childish. And I still do.



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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by xtimx on Fri Jul 28 23:42:42 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by JohnL on Fri Jul 28 20:14:30 2006.

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or at the very least "non-retard".

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by xtimx on Fri Jul 28 23:43:18 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 15:15:09 2006.

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ss officers were just "doing their jobs" too!!



/sarcasm (well a little)

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(289197)

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Jul 29 01:36:50 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 28 14:47:28 2006.

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tYpical Neocon crap.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 02:16:43 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by xtimx on Fri Jul 28 23:43:18 2006.

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I'm missing the humor, but I do sense a little stupidity in that post. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by xtimx on Sat Jul 29 02:22:43 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 02:16:43 2006.

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its called a joke. pull your head out of your ass.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 02:24:24 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by xtimx on Sat Jul 29 02:22:43 2006.

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A joke that fell flat, but didn't lose its stupidity. Sort of like a dumb blonde, except not pretty.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by xtimx on Sat Jul 29 02:26:56 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 02:24:24 2006.

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umm ok then.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by randyo on Sat Jul 29 02:29:56 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 28 15:10:32 2006.

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As many of you may already know, what most so called "transit reporters" don't know would fill volumes. I am all for freedom of the press, but there is so much misinformation being published by the ignoramuses who write for the media that their credibility is seriously compromised. Many times I have listened to the Shadow traffic reports on the radio that give out gross inaccuracies about train delays that a high quality fiction writer could not be more creative. If people are going to report on transit issues in any capacity whatsoever, they had better have exhaustively encyclopedic knowledge of every aspect of the transit system about which they are reporting. Absent that, they should seek employment elsewhere more in keeping with their level of knowledge such as teaching kindergarten children how to tie their shoes because in most cases that seems to be the extent of their capabilities.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by JohnL on Sat Jul 29 04:22:12 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 22:36:51 2006.

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Oh dear, Ron, the list of your remedial education classes gets longer, now it needs to include reading comprehension. If you can, go back and see who posted what.

So every advertising professional and every PR executiver and every marketer in the world is a sellout. Every politician is a sellout. Every attorney is a sellout. Every pharmaceutical executive is a sellout. Every consultant is a sellout.

How do you make this leap of logic?

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 29 04:38:47 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 28 22:31:04 2006.

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You suck too.
We ALL know that.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 29 05:43:33 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 29 04:38:47 2006.

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The "100 a year" sounds a bit on the low side. :(

You'd be saddened by how often it comes down JUST like the other posters described. And while I was fortunate enough to get out of there before MY number came up, I had a wonderful motorman when I was a conductor who worked my train because the splits were wonderous overtime for him. When he had a "leaper" it completely destroyed the man. :(

Those who choose "death by train" or "death by cop" are the most miserable people on the face of the earth. What did "WE" do to them to cause them to do to us? :(

You'd be amazed though.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by R PansePCC on Sat Jul 29 06:54:19 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by Edwards! on Fri Jul 28 17:53:28 2006.

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You said it perfectly.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by FLASH GORDON on Sat Jul 29 08:26:24 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 29 05:43:33 2006.

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HI KEVIN I came on after the split shift was gone but the xxx board
was just as bad as when you called in for the first job of the week
you didn't know if you were doing AM,PM and anything inbetween.
The screw office could make life for people a real joy.
FLASH GORDON

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by FLASH GORDON on Sat Jul 29 08:32:44 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 29 02:29:56 2006.

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YES,YES,YES.
I have a file cabnet to prove it too.
FLASH GORDON

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 09:49:08 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 29 02:29:56 2006.

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I don't blame you for saying that.

At least they could try to research the story a little before rushing it on the air. But they don't want to get "scooped," so accuracy is sometimes sacrificed.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 09:49:40 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by JohnL on Sat Jul 29 04:22:12 2006.

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It's your "logic" not mine.

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 29 11:04:10 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 29 05:43:33 2006.

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No..I wouldn't be amazed...
I would say "it's typical"...

Living in the "New York"[LOL..you know what I mean..since your a Bronx boy,My brother!]..we've seen the best AND the WORST of people.

In order to stay SANE..sometimes,we HAVE TO "Turn it off"...just to walk down the street or make it though the day!

Nothing amazes me anymore....

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by JohnL on Sat Jul 29 20:27:58 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jul 29 09:49:40 2006.

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Oh dear. Do we need to add “Logic 101” to the list of courses that make up your remedial education?

I think you should sign up soon, Ron. The list is getting longer!

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Jul 29 20:30:52 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by JohnL on Sat Jul 29 20:27:58 2006.

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Everyday, 1 more person dislikes Ron, what a shame : /

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by JohnL on Sat Jul 29 21:09:47 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Jul 29 20:30:52 2006.

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No. I don’t dislike Ron. I have never met him and he does make some worthwhile posts.

However his condescending attitude to posters with whom he disagrees, calling them “adolescent” and “needing to grow up”, or suggesting that they “need to improve their education”, is worrying since these are exactly the traits he displays himself.

I don’t like that people call him a***ole, since that’s indeed not respectful, but I can understand their frustration with Ron’s inadequacies. So I’m trying an education campaign, pointing out the deficiencies in Ron’s posts and suggesting education courses he could take to remedy them.

You can help! Remember that any courses you suggest should be ones that are likely to be offered by community colleges in and around Kansas City, Missouri, so that Ron is in a position to take advantage of them.

Yours in education!

John

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Jul 29 22:16:40 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'' - almost all quotes from Paul Fleuranges, spokesman for MTA, posted by FLASH GORDON on Fri Jul 28 20:06:12 2006.

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Are you French or just retarded?

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Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers''

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Jul 29 22:34:07 2006, in response to Re: DC rag article on rail ''Foamers'', posted by JohnL on Sat Jul 29 21:09:47 2006.

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Nice. Ron totally needs to take all the courses you mentioned in this subthread.

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