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Re: The LIRR President Speaks |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Apr 24 09:41:25 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:34:23 2006. I hear you. Distance is obviously a factor too.If LIRR double-tracked the line and increased MAS to close to 100 mph to shave some time off the trip from Penn or Brooklyn, could that bring commuters to Ronk a little earlier (so they would have more time between arrival and the run home? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:42:27 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:40:15 2006. No, you're confused. That's Dr. Ron Aryel who thinks "its like a loaded stone hopper." |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:42:39 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:40:29 2006. There are new Amenities for certain groups of people , your just not included, and you should be glad about that, I wish nobody use of canes or wheelchairs or walkers. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Apr 24 09:43:00 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:39:36 2006. Thank you for updating us on that. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:43:43 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:42:39 2006. Yes, I agree. But it should be said like it is. All they added were ADA stuff. Not stuff for the average commuter. |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:47:20 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:43:43 2006. for the average commuter they added cleanliness and toilets that don't stink like the toilet of a tuna trawler, they added a better ride, bigger windows, all things the commuters wanted in a new fleet. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:49:40 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Charles G on Sun Apr 23 23:19:12 2006. Good examples! Freeport and Hicksville are excellent examples if you want to compare some LIRR stations to "Stamford and White Plains". Mineola of course is another. You could also perhaps add Long Beach, Rockville Centre, and perhaps a few others.....but again, Ronkonkoma is not one of them, regardless of the amount of people using the station. It's just not a comparable area to the ones mentioned. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 24 09:55:31 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Apr 24 01:32:00 2006. In the first two points of power all 4 traction motors are in series with varying amounts of resistance in the circuit to control motor speed. These are known as "switching" & "series". At the end of series, when all resistance has been 'stepped' out of the circuit, the controller reconfigures the motors so that the 2 traction motors on each truck remain in series, both trucks are now in a parallel configuration. Simply put, with a 600 VDC 3rd rail, in series, the most any traction motor will see is 150 VDC. When in parallel, that obviously becomes 300VDC. The results should be obvious.BTW: This is moot when dealing with AC traction since each truck has its' own inverter on NYCT cars. the configuration never changes. LIRR DE/DM30AC locos have one inverter per traction motor. I am not aware of the configuration of the M-7s as yet. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:00:53 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:47:20 2006. 1. You think the commuters favor the much bigger, cleaner toilets vs. having more seats in the car? I'm not so sure.2. Better ride? I don't think the M7a cars ride that much better than the M1a/3a. 3. Bigger windows? Sure, the railfans like it. But I'm a daily commuter and I hardly see anyone looking out the windows. They are mostly reading or sleeping. Of all the things you mentioned, only "better smelling toilets" is something that I think the commuters wanted. |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 10:03:41 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 24 09:55:31 2006. The LIRR DE/DM has one inverter per truck as per EMD/siemens standard.The M-7 has one inverter per truck. The Ge locomotives have one inverter per traction motor |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 10:04:47 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:00:53 2006. not according the questionairs put out by both LIRR and MNCR a few years back. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:05:43 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:27:16 2006. 1) Because it is rapid transit/heavy rail, I'm willing to bet that PATCO's cars see more extreme starts and stops than the LIRR's cars. Furthermore, PATCO cars probably run at their maximum speeds a higher percentage of the time that the LIRR's cars. It's quite possible that the average speed of the PATCO cars is similar or higher than the LIRR's cars. As such, WillD makes a VALID comparison.I don't agree. The Babylon Branch is perhaps almost like your average rapid transit line. Before I make a comment on the "speeds" though, I would have to know what the speeds are. But to say that the LIRR doesn't reach the speeds, or extreme starts and stops that the LIRR's cars do has got to be false. Ridership does not "pound the heck" out of the cars. The cars running from point A to point B "pounds the heck" out of the cars no matter how many people are on-board Sure it does. The LIRR get a much bigger pounding than PATCO cars do. And the LIRR cars run WAY more often from point a to point B than PATCO does. And yes, ridership also pounds the hell out of the cars too, the more use, the more pounding the interiors take. And the interiors are part of the cars too, not just the mechanics (even if less important). |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:08:26 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Apr 24 09:26:12 2006. It would be interesting to know how much longer the M-1's would have lasted had they received proper maintenance.The point is though that they DIDN'T. That's water under the bridge, for past maitenance. It would cost a lot more now to overhaul them properly than had they been maintained. but again, it's irrelevant to talk about that, since past management didn't maintain them, and they are in the condition they are in, regardless. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:09:34 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:40:29 2006. FALSE. You mean a different level of ADA requirements. The new cars have no new amenities that I benefit from.I love the "railfan window" as much as anyone, but that's hardly a commuter "ammenity". |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:12:17 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:34:51 2006. Its a stainless steel body and frame, one thing upset the entire scenario is upgrades required to make car comply with todays FRA requirements.Correct, and they would have been REQUIRED to make the changes if they were majorly overhauled. This would have taken a lot of money, and they still would have been stuck with 40 year old cars in the twilight of their usefulness anyway. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:17:03 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Apr 24 09:41:25 2006. If LIRR double-tracked the line and increased MAS to close to 100 mph to shave some time off the trip from Penn or Brooklyn, could that bring commuters to Ronk a little earlier (so they would have more time between arrival and the run home?It's not even the running time that is involved in the hell-hole that is the Ronkonkoma station (and I don't mean condition, I mean atmosphere and stress). It's the sheer volume of people that use it, the traffic, the acres upon acres of cars. Even the parking garage adds more acres of cars, so it's not a matter of "build a parking garage). It's just too many people and cars. The only alleviation would be to extend towards Yaphank and beyond the service and electrification (as they are planning) to get people more spread out at other stations. A large amount of people are coming from points east of Ronkonkoma anyway. It's safe to say that less than 20 or 30% of the people using the Ronkonkoma station are NOT local Ronkonkoma people, or even immediately adjoining. |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Apr 24 10:18:28 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:34:23 2006. There is such chaos at that station [Ronkonkoma], that people pick up their coffee, bagel, newspaper at some store along their way between their home and the station to avoid the station itself. They then run out of their cars, and directly to the platforms, without stopping at the stores in the station. In the evening, it's the reverse, they run out of their trains, off the platforms and to their cars, and then drive away as quick as they can.Another problem is that the retail (newsstand, Dunkin' Donuts, bagel shop) is on the north side of the platforms along with the stationhouse, while the huge parking lot is on the south side. People who park in this lot have to trudge up and down one of the crossovers to reach the north-side retail. That can take too much time if you're in a hurry to catch a train, especially since there's no crossover at the east end of the plaforms. My LIRR/NYCT blog |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Apr 24 10:24:34 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:39:36 2006. The third track on the mainline between Hicksville and Queens Village is almost a complete given (at least the way he talked about it). The second track between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma was "being looked into", and electrification and a new yard east of Ronkonkoma (somewhere undetermined), as well as complete electrification to that yard and station is in the early stageTranslations into English from LIRR bureaucrat-speak: "Almost a complete given" = if you're under age 40, you might see it before you are eating dandelions by the root, as the French say. "Being looked into" = it may happen in your children's lifetimes. "In the early stages" = it may happen in the lifetime of a newly hatched Galapagos tortoise. My LIRR/NYCT blog |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:26:16 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:05:43 2006. But to say that the LIRR doesn't reach the speeds, or extreme starts and stops that the LIRR's cars do has got to be false.I meant: But to say that the LIRR doesn't reach the speeds, or extreme starts and stops that the PATCO cars do has got to be false. |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Apr 24 10:35:33 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sat Apr 22 00:15:25 2006. Sunnyside Yard has some CPLs (Amtrak sections). |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:37:04 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:05:43 2006. PATCO goes 70MPH between stations on the above ground portion and goes over the bridge at 30+ MPH.The interior is the easiest part of the car to replace. You can keep replacing interiors for ever. The mechanicals are what matter since spare parts have to exist/fit. You can make a new interior "fit" easier. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:38:22 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:09:34 2006. I didn't bring it up. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:40:11 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:38:22 2006. I didn't bring it up.Besides, when not covered up, the M7a's railfan view is not too shabby at all, considering you can clearly see the speedometer and other information on the LCD screen. It's just a little bit worse for getting photos since you are going through two panes of glass. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 10:52:01 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Apr 22 08:43:06 2006. They may have had full length cabs, but they were in the vestibule, and you could go up there and stand right next to the engineer, while looking out of the storm door, and making all of the train a brake noises that you liked.ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 10:55:28 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 22 17:16:08 2006. Estates Unitedad?isn't that US spelled backwards? ROAR |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Apr 24 10:56:01 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 22 23:48:47 2006. That's why they were called Heavyweight Coaches. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 10:58:20 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by tydev417 on Sat Apr 22 18:55:28 2006. NEWS FLASH:112 car unit coal trains are even heavier than that. Just two locomotives to make it tool along nicely at 55 mph. ROAR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 11:09:42 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:38:22 2006. Oh, okay, but that's sometimes a reason given by railfans for thinking some trains are not good cars. And I always find that so funny, as as much as we like them as a "feature", it's hardly a commuter/subway rider amenity. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 11:12:37 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 10:37:04 2006. Again, I don't know how fast the LIRR goes between stations on the various lines, but again, is that something that really matters in the wear and tear? I would assume the amount of use and distance, as well as frequent stops and starts amount more to the deterioration than allowing the cars to "spread their wings".The mechanicals are what matter since spare parts have to exist/fit. Yes, and parts have got to be harder to get the older the cars get. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 11:16:13 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Apr 23 21:26:48 2006. WRONG.At least this is all wrong if you are trying to determine the power needs of the railroad. The railroad, or the power company that supplies it, must be able to supply enough power to run ALL OF THE EQUIPMENT at ONCE. (Peak Load) So knowing what individual cars are drawing and when is irrelevent. During rush hour they are ALL moving, and ALL need power. Since the utility must purchace capacity to produce this amount and more (stand-by for down time, extra AC in warm weather etc etc) they will need to bill for that infrastructure even if you are only using a fraction of that in the middle of the night. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 11:23:24 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 23 18:09:30 2006. Athern RDC were real clunkers too. All of mine have had their propulsion packages ripped out. They are now used as cab-cars on my local trains.ROAR |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 24 11:29:57 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 10:05:43 2006. LIRR MAS is 80 MPH in many places - but lower in some. On the Babylon Branch for example, there is only a 2 minute run from Massapequa to Massapequa Park so the train will never achieve MAS.Crush loads are not as common on the LIRR as, say, on NYCT but they do happen. All that being said, the rates of accelleration & decelleration and loads are all built into the cars and should not significantly relate to a car's life expectancy. What I believe are the 2 greatest factors in the longevity of a railcar are the external factors of it's operation such as weather, track configuration and condition on which it runs, and the frequency and quality of it's maintenance programs. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 11:35:58 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Apr 23 08:46:22 2006. Balderdash.Make it 2x2 seating, but make the trains LONGER. Duh. How many millions can those extra cars possibly cost anyway. How much more power is really needed for those extra cars. Al that extra construction is money in the pockets of the workers. ROAR |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Apr 24 11:40:27 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:49:40 2006. I had thought about Rockville Centre, but figured that local zoning and limited highway access would prevent the village from ever becoming a "major" business center.I think you have to combine good rail service and access along with highway access to achieve what has happened in White Plains and Stamford. Valley Stream might be another -- particularly if a platform for Babylon branch trains were added. (One could really go the whole nine yards in the case of Valley Stream with converting the WH branch to light rail and extending it to downtown Hempstead.) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 11:41:09 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 11:35:58 2006. Haha. That sums it up.-The C3's got 2X2 because they are bi levels. They were able to get away with that because they for all intents and purposes consolidated the need for two sperate cars into one (roughly speaking of course) - you don't see 12 car trains on the diesel lines anymore, as it's unecessary - 4-8 cars or somewhere in between are now the norm. -They can't put bilevels on the electric lines due to the flexibility, and becayse bilevels couldn't use the Atlantic Branch, or the 63rd St tunnel (when it opens). -So 2X3 seating became necessary to replace the seating they had on the M1's, as you can make longer and longer trains, which would be necessary had they not done that. -the seats are narrower than the M1's because the new cars had to allow for ADA. |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Apr 24 11:41:18 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 09:26:35 2006. That's a good one -- and you don't even have to be married for that. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 11:42:30 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Charles G on Mon Apr 24 11:41:18 2006. And you can borrow your friend's, cousins, brother's, etc, etc dog if you don't have your own! |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Apr 24 12:05:38 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by mtk52983 on Sat Apr 22 19:23:18 2006. *The notable exception is during peak times so I can have a shot at an express train or during off-peak periods where I have time to kill as there are more amenities in Penn StationALOT more amenities. |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 12:05:52 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Apr 24 10:56:01 2006. Negative son these were not heavyweights but plain old 4 axle smmoth side standard (4800) coaches that MNCR ran from stamford in 1990's they ended up on RBB circus train. |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Apr 24 12:06:26 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 22 12:28:43 2006. SCA=Suit Covered Anus (or @$$hole....you pick). |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Apr 24 12:10:21 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 12:05:52 2006. Roger that. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 12:15:28 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 08:26:13 2006. Most *buildings* are designed with a 25 year lifespan.You want more life out of them, then you have to put more into them. When the Monks of St. Meinrad Archabbey told their architect that they wanted their new monastery to be built with a 100 year lifespan, the archetect fell over laughing. But we are a religious order with over 1500 years of existance, and many buildings that are several hundred years old, and so no they were not kidding, and once the architect climbed back up into his chair, that is exactly what he designed. The building is very well made. Given my experience with railcars, I should be happy to expect a 40 to 50 year lifespan for them. Acccording to my calculations the M1s are 40 years old (give or take a smmodge) They lived well, they could have carried on with proper rebuilds, but somewhere along the line the accountant say enough. And after that, nothing else matters. ROAR |
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Posted by tydev417 on Mon Apr 24 14:06:56 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 24 09:42:27 2006. No, It's WillD too. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 15:10:03 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Apr 23 00:30:11 2006. Isn't there a lake or something there?hehehehe..... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 15:28:13 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 24 15:10:03 2006. Yes, but no where near the railroad station. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 24 15:35:14 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Charles G on Mon Apr 24 11:40:27 2006. And most og what you said would never really happen. The LIRR for some reason or another just doesn't seem to be interested in providing any reverse peak commuting service (admittedly because they're restricted by track capacities), and the various towns and villages themselves just appear to be uninterested in that type of development.One of things that I've noticed when I've taken commuter rail is that on NJT and MNCR, you notice a slight build up in density near the train stations. You'll see apartments, condos, and multi-story commercial developments. In contrast, on the LIRR, it's rare to see such development. but figured that local zoning and limited highway access would prevent the village from ever becoming a "major" business center. That's another thing. The Parkways here on the island tend to bypass the villages very well. In contrast, I-95 and I-287 go thru the downtowns of Stamford and White Plains (and Morristown too). La Grande Anse |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 24 15:42:17 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 24 15:35:14 2006. The LIRR for some reason or another just doesn't seem to be interested in providing any reverse peak commuting service (admittedly because they're restricted by track capacities), and the various towns and villages themselves just appear to be uninterested in that type of development.Uh, quite the opposite. The third track on the mainline is in direct response to wanting reverse peak traffic. The president even mentioned that the only reason they don't do more is because the current two tracks on the mainline are needed for the current peak direction traffic. It's unfair to compare the LIRR to Metro North and NJT, as they do not handle the volume that the LIRR handles, especially on the mainline, where the Oyster Bay, Port Jeff, Ronkonkoma, Hempstead, and some Ronkonkoma trains all have to share the same ROW and many of them the same tracks, all while sending half hourly or better service in peak direction all at the same time. One of things that I've noticed when I've taken commuter rail is that on NJT and MNCR, you notice a slight build up in density near the train stations. You'll see apartments, condos, and multi-story commercial developments. In contrast, on the LIRR, it's rare to see such development. And what exactly does that have to do with the LIRR? That's not up to the LIRR do build condos, apartments, multi story commercial developments, etc at their stations. That's another thing. The Parkways here on the island tend to bypass the villages very well. In contrast, I-95 and I-287 go thru the downtowns of Stamford and White Plains (and Morristown too). Perhaps, or perhaps not, but again, that has nothing to do with what the LIRR can or can't do. |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Apr 24 15:50:20 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by WillD on Mon Apr 24 02:31:56 2006. As someone else mentioned: what about MILEAGE? (Long Island Rail Road cars build up mileage much more quickly than any other railroad other than perhaps SEPTA or NJ Transit.) |
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Re: The LIRR President Speaks |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Apr 24 15:52:18 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 24 09:47:20 2006. for the average commuter they added cleanliness and toilets that don't stink like the toilet of a tuna trawler,Isn't it cheaper to just pay the damn carcleaners to do their job rather than purchase new EMUs at nearly 2 million bucks a pop? If the M1s were not clean then by definition that'd be a maitenance failure on the MN and LIRR's part. How long until the M7s look like shit? 5 years? 10 years? Should the MTA buy new EMUs then because the cars are 'dirty'? |
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Re: The LIRR President Speaks |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Apr 24 16:23:50 2006, in response to Re: The LIRR President Speaks, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Apr 22 11:46:12 2006. I wonder...before 1951, the locomotives, not the passengers, changed at Jamaica. DD1s took the cars from Penn to Jamaica, where a G5s or early diesel was waiting. While this probably wouldn't be econonical today, dual-mode technology is half-a-century old. I still don't understand why the DE/DM units were so poorly built. |
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