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Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Thu Sep 14 09:23:24 2023 Tuscarora Almanac - September 14, 1964 - The Book of First Runs Brooklyn, New York New York City Transit Authority BMT Division The R-32 A "Brightliners" begin passenger service today on the "Q" Broadway Express. (aka BMT # 1 Brighton Express.) The first train ran from Brighton Beach to 57 Street – 7th Avenue with cars (n) 3359-8, 3371-0, 3362-3 and 3364-5. After the General Overhaul Rebuilding of the late 1980’s the R-32 A’s and R-32’s were collectively classed as R-32 GOH or more simply R-32. When the contract was awarded to the Budd Company in 1963 for 600 stainless steel cars it was split into two separate orders. The first 300 cars were classed as “R-32 A”, road nos: 3350-3649. They were paid for by the City of New York. The second 300 cars were known as “R-32”, road nos: 3650-3949. They were paid for by bonds issued by the New York City Transit Authority. Source: New York Division Bulletin / October 1964/ Mr. Arthur Lonto Source: “New York Subways” (John Hopkins University Press / 1997) by Mr. Gene Sansone Tuscarora Almanac - September 14, 1974 - The Book of Last Runs Hoboken, New Jersey Erie Lackawanna Railroad This will be the last day in passenger service of the veteran Erie Railroad "Stillwell" coaches. They have spent the last several years assigned to the runs between Port Jervis and Hoboken. There is no Sunday service so final runs will occur on Saturday, September 14. There are two scheduled trains that day; the eastbound, No 70 which runs to Hoboken in the morning and the westbound, No 71 which returns to Port Jervis in the late afternoon. This morning No.70 came down with three E-8's 829, 816, 825 and fifteen coaches. No.70 ran back to Port Jervis with E-8 825 and two coaches. It then deadheaded back to Hoboken. Source: “Erie Lackawanna in Color” (Morning Sun Books / 1994) by Mr. Larry De Young Source: “Erie Lackawanna East” (Quadrant Press / 1975) by Mr. Karl R. Zimmerman Tuscarora Almanac – September 14, 1979 – The Book of First Runs Brooklyn, New York New York City Transit Authority BMT Division The three restored BU Gate cars arrive at the Court Street Transit Museum in Brooklyn. The roster numbers are 1404 (motor), 1273 (trailer) and 1407 (motor). Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 14 19:34:56 2023, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Thu Sep 14 09:23:24 2023. I heard the R-32s weren't exactly received with great enthusiasm. They replaced the venerable Triplexes that had seats galore and Brighton passengers became straphangers. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Sep 14 21:01:05 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 14 19:34:56 2023. quoting Jagger,Richards. You can't always get what you want...you get what you need. As we all know, they were very well built, and outasted many more recent fleets. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by gbs on Fri Sep 15 03:41:50 2023, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Thu Sep 14 09:23:24 2023. September 9, 1964:  September 14, 1964:  
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 15 04:19:04 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Sep 14 21:01:05 2023. Indeed, the R-32's lifespan ended up being somewhere between the Standards and venerable 'Q' units.I.M.H.O., they looked much better BEFORE the whole GOH, although weren't there some rebuilds from another firm (GE, perhaps?) that retained at least a smidgen of their original look, unlike most? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Sep 15 09:05:31 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 14 19:34:56 2023. Steve: Many of us were very excited to the the R-32's arrive. The best place to view trains was at the upper level of Queensboro Plaza. There were Brightliners running on the Brighton Local and Bluebirds on the No. 7. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Sep 15 16:42:56 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 15 04:19:04 2023. No disagreement there. The cyclops eye front was terrible. The trade off of A/C is worth the ugly look. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Sep 15 18:47:38 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 15 04:19:04 2023. Yes.The GE rebuild looked better. The end cap kept it's headliner, like the R38s GE rebuilt. Basically, the ten car R32GE served as the test bed as to see what could be done to the cars, refitting them with upgraded mechanicals, HVAC, and other things. weight was a problem, and additional hardware had to be welded to the frame, door threshold, roof and underbody due to cracks discovered. The overall effect was amazing. I definitely loved the new look, even with the "cyclops" route sign. We all know that the set did develop it's own sort of issues down the road, namely water leaking into the cars because they didn't get a New roof like the other R32s did. They spent the rest of it's service days on the A/C lines, mostly C...often mixed in with R38s. They were removed when the R160s began to Arrive, pushing Stillwell trains to 207th and Pitkin. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 15 20:14:37 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Sep 15 09:05:31 2023. Subway buffs may have been excited, but passengers who were used to finding a seat on the Triplexes with no problem may have felt differently. OTOH the R-27/30s had been around for a while by then and they had longitudinal seats, too. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 15 20:17:50 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Sep 14 21:01:05 2023. I liked them right away when I first rode on them in 1965. They were quite attractive. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 15 22:13:26 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Sep 15 09:05:31 2023. As a kid, I'd be excited to see these at Queensboro Plaza. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 16 09:01:39 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 15 22:13:26 2023. Arguably the best piece of subway equipment ever built. A pity I never had a chance to ride on them. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Sep 16 09:41:34 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 16 09:01:39 2023. I agree. Stepping out of new a #7 R33/36WF to a Triplex was like going thru a time warp. We'd visit relatives in Astoria near the Hoyt Ave Sta and sometimes we'd either get one of these or a Standard for the ride. IMO it was the closest to a commuter rail car that the TA had in service at the time. Good solid feel and comfortable longitudinal seating.As you can see by the Triplex shown that it was filthy, getting minimal TLC just enough to keep it road worthy. Clearly, the days of those road warriors were numbered. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 19 04:44:17 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Sep 16 09:41:34 2023. At the time that most of the older NYCTS equipment was running neither the B of T nor the NYCTA made use of car washes since there weren't any. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Sep 19 09:54:55 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 14 19:34:56 2023. The Triplexes were also longer, 4 sets being nearly 540 feet, same as 9 cars of 60 footers. The married-pair configuration of the Brightliners were only 8 cars initially, then 10 when the Brighton was connected to Grand St. and the 6th Av. line, both of which by 1967 could fit 10 cars. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 19 10:59:51 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Sep 14 21:01:05 2023. The R32's longevity wasn't due to the TA's foresight or design.The RFP called for a continuation of the TA's infatuation with LAHT steel. Budd requested to substitute stainless steel, at no extra cost. The TA reluctantly agreed. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 19 11:15:29 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 14 19:34:56 2023. They replaced the venerable Triplexes that had seats galore and Brighton passengers became straphangers.The seating reduction was a legitimate gripe. The AB's had a seating capacity of 78 seats per car. An 8 car train could seat 624 passengers The D's had a seating capacity of 160 per triplex section. A 4 car train could seat 640 passengers. The R32's had a seating capacity of 50 seats (for underweight passengers). An 8 car train could seat 400 passengers. Later 10 car trains could seat 500 passengers. This represented a substantial reduction in the number of seats. Usable standing capacity requires well defined corridors to/from the doors. The seating and pole arrangements on both the AB's and D's were designed to create such corridors. The R32's with their longitudinal seats do not create such corridors. This means the R32's provided less usable standing room than their predecessors, despite seating far fewer passengers. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 20 04:43:59 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 19 10:59:51 2023. There was a rumor that when some of the some of the TA’s car equipment managers saw how well the R-32s performed they, lamented that it was too bad the R-27s and 30s weren't made of stainless steel. Some of the B of T’s and TA’s upper managers were so paranoid and bordering on incompetent that they were afraid to try anything new and it was a miracle that the R-10s and later SMEES even turned out the way they did instead of being just newer R-9s. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 20 04:49:11 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 19 11:15:29 2023. The policy of the TA seems to be that it is more important to stuff bodies into a car rather than guarantee seating. While the older cars with the combination seating sat more passengers, the newer cars with the bowling alley seats carried more actual passengers even though most of them were standees because standing passengers take up less room than seated passengers. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Sep 20 07:18:28 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 20 04:43:59 2023. Some of the B of T’s and TA’s upper managers were so paranoid and bordering on incompetent that they were afraid to try anything new...I've found this to be a pretty universal problem - not confined to transit, NYCTA, NYCBOT, or MTA. Management's big fear is making a blunder that could be traced to them. That's one reason for risk taking fear in the form of trying something new and unproven in the exact same application. I've found the prevalence of the fear to be proportional to the age of the organization, rather than govt. vs. private industry, etc. One problem with promoting from within is lack of knowledge of alternative ways of accomplishing something. This lack of knowledge contributes to the paranoia of trying something different. A new organization is more concerned with getting things done, before the initial capital runs out. This leads to accepting new ideas, rather than a pervasive CYA attitude. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Sep 20 08:06:58 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 20 04:49:11 2023. The policy of the TA seems to be that it is more important to stuff bodies into a car rather than guarantee seating.The goal should be increasing the number of passengers per hour. That includes dwell time, among other parameters. If there are no defined corridors from car interiors to the doors, increased dwell time will negate any body count increase. standing passengers take up less room than seated passengers. Not as much as you may think. There are academic studies that have studied this. Many of the conclusions are contained in the National Academies' Transportation Research Board's "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual." Here are some of the space requirements: Tight double seat: 3.8 sq ft Transverse seating: 5.4 sq ft Longitudinal seating: 4.3 sq ft Standing holding on to stanchion: 3.5 - 4.0 sq ft Standing with daypack: 3.8 - 4.2 sq ft Standing with briefcase, computer bag: 3.4 - 4.1 sq ft Standing: 2.2 - 2.6 sq ft Required dwell time depends on the amount of space taken up by standees. Here's the characterization of dwell time vs. area allotted per standee: 4.3 - 5.3 sq ft: Standing load without body contact; Standees have similar amount of personal space as seated passengers; Reasonably easy circulation within vehicle 3.2 - 4.2 sq ft: Occasional body contact; Standees have less space than seated passengers; Provides a balance between passenger comfort and capacity; Moving to and from doorways requires some effort, which may increase dwell time 2.2 - 3.1 sq ft: Approaching uncomfortable conditions for North Americans; Frequent body contact and inconvenience with packages and briefcases; Maximum schedule load for design; Moving to and from doorways extremely difficult, increasing dwell time; Passengers waiting to board may try to shift to a door in a less-crowded section of the vehicle, increasing dwell time < 2.1 sq ft: Crush loading conditions; Moving to and from doorways extremely difficult, increasing dwell time; Passengers waiting to board may try to shift to a door in a less-crowded section of the vehicle, increasing dwell time; Passengers waiting to board may choose to wait for the next vehicle, increasing platform crowding |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 20 12:20:12 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Sep 20 08:06:58 2023. LOL! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 20 17:50:03 2023, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Thu Sep 14 09:23:24 2023. Could you run a Triplex as a single three-sectioned unit? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Sep 20 18:47:55 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Sep 16 09:41:34 2023. I've read that the Triplexes were "poorly maintained," yet they were still running like tops when they were prematurely pulled - only because the R-32s were being delivered so rapidly that there was no room for them. The TA also wanted to get rid of everything that was, "nonstandard," and that included articulating uinits. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Sep 20 18:51:09 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 19 11:15:29 2023. One other thing I remember about my first subway ride in 1965 was that the train wasn't crowded at all. We sat the whole way from 36th St. to 34th St.-Herald Square. I should have asked my father to take a photo of me by one of the sign boxes with "57th St." backlit in green. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Sep 20 18:53:24 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 20 17:50:03 2023. Yes, the Triplexes could run as single three-section units. In those instances, the conductor would operate the doors inside using a set of door controls that did not trainline. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 21 05:26:19 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Sep 20 07:18:28 2023. I’m not so sure about that. If it were the case then how come the transit agencies in Chicago and Boston adopted much of the PCC technology that was developed here in NY for their postwar equipment while the B of T and NYCTA rejected it? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 21 05:49:21 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Sep 20 18:53:24 2023. As one of the BMT old timers, single D type units dod run during midnight hours on the Sea Beach and it was reported that one one of the semi holidays on which a regular daily schedule was operated, a single D unit was used in place of a C type on the West End Bay Pky shuttle. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 21 05:52:25 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Sep 20 18:47:55 2023. It seems that by 1950 articulation had fallen out of favor with transit operators which is why the CTA never increased the order of the 4 articulated units but went with married pairs instead as Boston did. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Sep 21 08:45:11 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 21 05:26:19 2023. If it were the case then how come the transit agencies in Chicago and Boston adopted much of the PCC technology that was developed here in NY for their postwar equipment while the B of T and NYCTA rejected it?There was a merger/hostile takeover of the BMT by the NYCBOT. The merged organization suddenly has a surplus of managers, middle managers, etc. This places them in super survival mode. The NYCBOT managers were in charge because the BOT absorbed the BMT. The BOT managers survival mode included imposing their culture onto the BMT. I've seen this happen in the tech business, where "mergers" are far more common. This is true, even if the merger was to buy superior technology. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 28 15:09:35 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 21 05:49:21 2023. A single unit D type would have been perfect for the Franklin shuttle, especially after the arrival of the R-27/30's and the R-32's. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Sep 28 16:12:58 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 28 15:09:35 2023. They would just have to be fast enough on the switch so they don't gap out |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Sep 28 16:13:27 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 28 15:09:35 2023. From time to time D types did run on the Franklyn shuttle - I would ride them when I was a child living near Eastern Parkway and Franklyn Ave. in Brooklyn. The D types worked well, but I noted that they used friction bearings while newer cars had roller bearings, thus making them less labor intensive ( less people needed to maintain them ) - so in the interests of being cost effective, the older cars were replaced. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 28 17:20:57 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Sep 28 16:13:27 2023. IINM 6120 was eqiopped with roller bearings and was even marked as such. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Sep 30 03:14:26 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 28 17:20:57 2023. There were 5 D units equipped with roller bearings the first 4 6001, 6001, 6002, 6003 and the last one 6120. While most of the Ds had GE controls, 6002 and 6003 had WH controls almost identical the those on the soon to be delivered IND R-1s. The instructions sheets explaining to BMT M/M the operation of the IND cars even mentioned the similarity between the R-1 controllers and the controllers on 6002 and 6003. Unfortunately, 6002 and 6003 had been scrapped by the time the transit museum was established so neither one of them was saved although it would have been nice todo so. All the roller bearing cars had yellow and white stripes and the words “roller bearing car” painted inside the M/M’s cabs of those units. Many of the M/M I spoke to referred to the D types as “the roller bearing cars” even though only 5 units had them. The reason for the spacial markings was because on prewar equipment, it was common practice to fully release the brakes just as the train was coming to a stop because the friction bearings would keep the train stopped on level track. With the roller bearing cars, a slight brake would have to be kept on in order to keep the train from rolling. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 30 08:49:49 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 30 03:14:26 2023. Hmm.No wonder the R10 and D Units are so close in appearance and technology. From what I'm gathering, the D Units were the design models for the R1s, and were considered as The Car for the new line. However, the BOT did it's research, and figured that articulation would be a maintenance nightmare, keeping the cars shopped longer than needed. The BOT designed the R10 for speed power, easy entry and exit. It also designed a car that would be ideal for the road, length wise at 60'6., longer than the IRT car, but shorter than the BMT Standard. Single cars, only. No sets with trailers, every car powered motors to take advantage of the speedy system. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 30 08:50:08 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 30 03:14:26 2023. Hmm.No wonder the R1 and D Units are so close in appearance and technology. From what I'm gathering, the D Units were the design models for the R1s, and were considered as The Car for the new line. However, the BOT did it's research, and figured that articulation would be a maintenance nightmare, keeping the cars shopped longer than needed. The BOT designed the R10 for speed power, easy entry and exit. It also designed a car that would be ideal for the road, length wise at 60'6., longer than the IRT car, but shorter than the BMT Standard. Single cars, only. No sets with trailers, every car powered motors to take advantage of the speedy system. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14 |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Sep 30 10:54:31 2023, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 14, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 30 08:50:08 2023. Thanks for the correction changing "R10" to "R1".For a moment I was thinking 'WTF"! The external similarities with "D" type and R1-9's is so obvious. The single unit though, as simplified maintenance can not be argued. There was one Holiday consist that had both. I wish 'MTH" had produced the "D" types so I could run my own Holiday Special. |
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