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| R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? (1605274) | |
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| (1605274) | |
R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022 R211A Pilot Train delivered July 2021 (12 months late).Qualification testing underway at NYCT. The pilot train continues to undergo extensive testing. Upon successful completion, production car deliveries will begin in December 2022 (15 months late). R211T Open Gangway Test Trains projected deliveries in October/December 2022 (17/19 months late). R211S Staten Island Railway Cars - test train projected delivery in February 2023 (14 months late); production cars projected start delivery in March 2024 (18 months late) with completion October 2024 (16 months late). R211A Base Order projected for completion in January 2025 (17 months late). The R211 project management team actively engages with Kawasaki to mitigate ongoing schedule challenges: Weekly production and manpower update reports from KMM. Ongoing engagement with Kawasaki to review schedule and Kawasakis oversight of sub-suppliers. Qualification of alternate sources to mitigate supply chain issues. NYCT and consultant support on-site at KMM. NYCT and consultant visits to supplier sites to resolve open issues to minimize production and testing delays. Ongoing project support for Kawasaki qualification testing at NYCT. R211A Pilot Train continue qualification testing and implementation of field modifications at NYCT. R211T Open Gangway Test Trains initiate qualification testingand evaluation of open gangway following prototype deliveries in October 2022 and December 2022. R211S Staten Island Railway Cars initiate qualification testing at NYCT and SIR following test train delivery in February 2023. Execution of Option 1 projected for Q4 2022/Q1 2023, total of 640 cars. Based on the late delivery of the R211 cars, MTA C&D is developing alternate plans for 8 Av CBTC cutover. Independent Engineer report: - The 10 pilot cars are now being tested and having Field Modification Instructions (FMIs) incorporated. Kawasaki has dispatched engineers and production workers to support this work. - Completion of pilot car testing has now been extended due to technical issues from August 2021 to November 2022, a total delay of 15-months or a 3-month delay since last report. - Final delivery of all R211 vehicles has changed from July 2023 to January 2025, an 18-month delay. - The delivery schedule for the base order of 535 vehicles equates to an average delivery rate of 20 vehicles per month. - Assuming timely resolution of supply chain and labor issues and that Kawasaki will utilize two production lines with two work shifts each; it is the IECs opinion this rate of production will be challenging and may result in a further delay to the project of between 6 and 9 months. This would require the R46 fleet life be extended incurring additional maintenance and support cost. Concern - The IEC is concerned that the late delivery of the R211A fleet is a coordination issue which will impact the 8th Avenue CBTC project. -This project is dependent upon the delivery of the entire fleet of 440 R211A cars (415 in service + 25 spares). - Due to the unavailability of the R211A cars by the CBTC testing start date of February 2024, the 8th Avenue project team has developed a mitigation plan link for presentation & photos, starts on page 28, pdf file: https://new.mta.info/document/89781 |
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| (1605278) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 08:41:41 2022, in response to R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022. And to think the old-style cars - both pre-World War II and the postwar SMEE's - had very little issues compared to this. It didn't use to be this way. |
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| (1605279) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 25 09:43:07 2022, in response to R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022. Any delay keeping the R46s around longer is a blessing. |
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| (1605281) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 25 10:16:10 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 08:41:41 2022. It will be 11 years (at least) from design to full deployment. I think commercial aircraft go through the process faster! |
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| (1605282) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 10:38:08 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 25 10:16:10 2022. The major issue is that NYCTA does not buy off the shelf products. They insist on unique engineering. |
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| (1605283) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 10:47:45 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 10:38:08 2022. Which explained, in 1972-73, the T6H-5309 and 5310 orders, which would prove to be the last time they would order any new Fishbowls. |
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| (1605284) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jun 25 10:51:23 2022, in response to R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022. Damn shame.From planning,design and execution,this program has become a 10 year nightmare. Modification after Modification supply chain issues, and whatever else could go wrong did go wrong effectively killed this subway car. I miss the old days where this wasn't a problem for contractors. Today's production line has to be checked, rechecked, and Three checked, before cars are released because of shoddy craftsmanship.. When did quality control become sooo sloppy? Damn. It's fine with me. All this means is the 46s get to stick around for the next 10 years. Fantastic! |
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| (1605285) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 11:03:33 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 10:47:45 2022. I dont know anything about busses. My comment was specific to railcars |
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| (1605289) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 12:22:13 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 11:03:33 2022. Standards were simpler in the olden days, that's the point. Both with buses and subways. |
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| (1605290) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:11:11 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 25 10:16:10 2022. Which makes the computer based technology completely outdated.(I can't think of the right word LOL!) |
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| (1605291) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:21:50 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 08:41:41 2022. If you look at recent orders of other new subway and commuter rail cars (Boston, our R179's & M9's) no matter who builds them they all have late deliveries, problems during testing and entering passenger service even later.Don't forget the builder can become a "victim" of their subcontractors who make the components. |
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| (1605292) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:22:24 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:11:11 2022. The word is obsolete. |
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| (1605293) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:26:54 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 25 09:43:07 2022. The crews love them.But transit needs better mechanical performance out of the CIYD assigned ones. But you have to realize morale is low in that shop once they gave up all their R160's. Now they are stuck with the oldest cars in the B Division: R46/68/68A. |
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| (1605296) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 14:52:55 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:21:50 2022. Let's not overlook Washington there in incorrect spec. for pressing wheels has led to a nightmare |
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| (1605299) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 15:34:38 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 14:52:55 2022. Indeed.I'll never figure out how something so basic was so completely flubbed |
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| (1605301) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 16:13:09 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 15:34:38 2022. People not proofreading with care |
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| (1605303) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 16:14:12 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 12:22:13 2022. okay thanks |
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| (1605304) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Jun 25 16:52:26 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 10:47:45 2022. New fishbowls from GM. |
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| (1605306) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Jun 25 17:24:13 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jun 25 10:38:08 2022. "The major issue is that NYCTA does not buy off the shelf products. They insist on unique engineering."The above is typical of most NYCT contract designs, especially with cut and paste from older contracts that may include poor contract deliverable objectives that result in additional work orders (AWO's). AWO's add delays, and cost to contracts. |
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| (1605307) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Jun 25 17:25:55 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 12:22:13 2022. "Standards were simpler in the olden days, that's the point. Both with buses and subways."The same can be said about a single engine Bi-plane of the 1930's, and a high performance jet powered aircraft if today. |
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| (1605308) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by zac on Sat Jun 25 17:53:13 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 25 14:26:54 2022. And they are probably not given the resources to work on them. |
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| (1605311) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by The Silence on Sat Jun 25 20:22:41 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 08:41:41 2022. R1s had more than a full year of time for testing, starting with the six month run on the BMT in 1930.Who is to say that changes or tweaks were not made then. |
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| (1605314) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sat Jun 25 22:14:10 2022, in response to R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022. If I read that right, the pilot set won't complete testing until November 22 so the train won't hit revenue service until the fall at the earliest? |
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| (1605320) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by zac on Sun Jun 26 04:23:06 2022, in response to R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022. Through all of it I didn't read of any specific issue that they had with the test train itself that needed correcting. They had engineers and technicians here to work on it but what did they work on? They also blame supply chain issues and labor shortages and overall coordination for the delays, and then go on to say they have a mitigation plan, but then question even that.There was definitely a gap between initial testing when they arrived and the recent testing that has been happening where nobody saw them in action. Did they need a significant rework? |
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| (1605323) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by gold_12th on Sun Jun 26 09:02:11 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sat Jun 25 22:14:10 2022. Yes, its likely November of this year. Hopefully it will be free of bugs. |
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| (1605336) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Dan on Sun Jun 26 14:46:03 2022, in response to R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by gold_12th on Sat Jun 25 00:13:13 2022. By the time the full compliment of all R-211 cars is in service it won't matter because by then everybody will be Working From Home. |
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| (1605337) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jun 26 14:50:58 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Dan on Sun Jun 26 14:46:03 2022. If anything, WFH is declining, albeit slowly. |
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| (1605338) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jun 26 14:58:10 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jun 26 14:50:58 2022. IAWTP. |
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| (1605374) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 27 08:17:58 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by The Silence on Sat Jun 25 20:22:41 2022. July 1931, to be exact. They had the luxury of being able to run on BMT rails because the tunnel clearances were similar. |
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| (1605443) | |
Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 28 16:12:22 2022, in response to Re: R-211 car order - June 2022 progress update; lots of delays; R46 possible extended life?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 27 08:17:58 2022. From what I read, the BMT tunnels were designed for 60 ft cars but by making adjustments to the truck placement they were able to squeeze out a 67 ft car. |
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