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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by piyer on Thu Jun 16 22:59:38 2022, in response to Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 16 22:38:40 2022. It's before Morgan, not after, and it's not a platform but the old ramp for car delivery: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/BMT_Canarsie_Line_Car_Delivery |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by gbs on Fri Jun 17 00:20:13 2022, in response to Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 16 22:38:40 2022. Are we sure we're talking about the same thing? I haven't been to Montrose Av in a while, but we once took a tour there with Joe Cunningham, and the only evidence of the ramp was the high ceiling above the Manhattan-bound track right there in the station. As can be seen in those photos, especially this one, the ramp was along Bushwick Av going north from Montrose Av, heading towards Grand Av, right where the future station would be. There should be no remnants of the ramp south of Montrose Av towards Morgan Av. In the Montrose Av paragraph on the Canarsie Line history page at nycsubway.org site it says: Somewhere just beyond, on the citybound side, is a long-forgotten ramp leading to the street. This is where BMT Standard cars were fed directly into the subway back in the twenties. Long closed off and forgotten, remnants can be seen from the front of the passing train. This is not quite true. The ramp came down directly over the Manhattan-bound track and was completely removed (because it was in the way), not closed off and forgotten. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 05:54:02 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by piyer on Thu Jun 16 22:59:38 2022. I said its between Jefferson and Morgan so yes, its before Morgan.Its not a ramp or anything like that. See for yourself. Heres the video, scroll to about 14:50 and then keep watching the wall to the right. The platform is at about 15:35 or so. https://youtu.be/fGh5fspqUNA |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Ancient Mariner on Fri Jun 17 09:14:13 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 05:54:02 2022. Yes, it's quite clear at 15:40 of the video you posted, and it is definitely not a remnant of any sort of ramp. I have a clear screen grab of it, and if I could ever figure out how to post photos on this damn board, I'd share it! |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 09:24:21 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by gbs on Fri Jun 17 00:20:13 2022. Why woule they tile up where there was a delivery ramp ?It's a good guess, but I think not. Maybe a payroll station when the line was physicaly isolated ? |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 11:37:19 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Ancient Mariner on Fri Jun 17 09:14:13 2022. Any idea what it is? The pillars definitely look tiled. |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 11:39:06 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 09:24:21 2022. That could be. Its certainly big enough for that. But why would it be there? Seems like an odd location to have a payroll station. Maybe a money door, like at Jay Street on the IND? |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 17 11:59:57 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 05:54:02 2022. immediately N of a tunnel area which looks to have been built for a full crossover. A location for a tower? |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 12:24:17 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 11:39:06 2022. That too. Could have beenan ancient bank there. It is uni-directional. |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by zac on Fri Jun 17 12:31:49 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 17 11:59:57 2022. Did the trains reverse there before the line was completed? |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by R46 5636 on Fri Jun 17 14:59:56 2022, in response to Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 16 22:38:40 2022. It isn't tiled. Appears to be some sort of ventilation room. From the angle of the video there's not much to make out or what's facing the other way.It's hard to tell but there appears to be some sort of stop marker just past the station, unless it's some device for CBTC. This only adds to my curiosity of this specific section of the Canarsie line. Most notably, a subway-themed playground sits right above the tunnels just before the Morgan Avenue Station one block over, with a "Play Token" on the ground and metal lines exactly above the Manhattan - bound tunnel within the playground. Here's the playground on maps: Justice Gilbert Ramirez Park https://maps.app.goo.gl/B92THTMSs4o18fSq5 This is directly above the mysterious platform: https://maps.app.goo.gl/zHAxBtvj1PyajAYn7 The schoolyard just after the Montrose station also has "tracks" painted over where the tunnels run directly below. |
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Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 15:00:16 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 12:24:17 2022. I wish we could get a good look at the space - it seems that the pillars are tiled?Just when you think all subway curios have been identified another mysterious one pops up. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:24 2022, in response to Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 15:00:16 2022. Yup.The 14th st line is one mystery that needs solving. The issue here to me is the fact that it has no direct connection to any Manhattan route. The 8th Avenue subway was supposed to have a track connection to the line,but that was removed from the planning stages for some odd reasons. The Utica Avenue line was supposed to be a branch off the route during the early stages, but for some reason the line was continuously put to the back burner. The connection to the Long Island Railroad was removed, even though the line was supposed to take over the route and use it to.Queens. The isolation of this line is a testimony in poor planning. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:25 2022, in response to Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 15:00:16 2022. Yup.The 14th st line is one mystery that needs solving. The issue here to me is the fact that it has no direct connection to any Manhattan route. The 8th Avenue subway was supposed to have a track connection to the line,but that was removed from the planning stages for some odd reasons. The Utica Avenue line was supposed to be a branch off the route during the early stages, but for some reason the line was continuously put to the back burner. The connection to the Long Island Railroad was removed, even though the line was supposed to take over the route and use it to.Queens. The isolation of this line is a testimony in poor planning. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:27 2022, in response to Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 15:00:16 2022. Yup.The 14th st line is one mystery that needs solving. The issue here to me is the fact that it has no direct connection to any Manhattan route. The 8th Avenue subway was supposed to have a track connection to the line,but that was removed from the planning stages for some odd reasons. The Utica Avenue line was supposed to be a branch off the route during the early stages, but for some reason the line was continuously put to the back burner. The connection to the Long Island Railroad was removed, even though the line was supposed to take over the route and use it to.Queens. The isolation of this line is a testimony in poor planning. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 16:38:49 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:27 2022. Any connection to the Myrtle Ave el at Wyckoff contemplated ? |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Jun 17 17:13:32 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 16:38:49 2022. Now? |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 18:54:22 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:24 2022. Wonderfully put. But it doesnt tell us what that mystery platform is or was. |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 18:56:41 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by R46 5636 on Fri Jun 17 14:59:56 2022. Arent ventilation rooms usually gated off to keep miscreants out?The pillars at this platform are also different than in the rest of the tunnel - theyre thicker, more like station pillars. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jun 17 21:24:14 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:24 2022. it has a direct connection to the "jamaica EL at b`way junction |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Jun 17 21:29:18 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jun 17 21:24:14 2022. It does, but it's not highly useful for revenue service.A Manhattan connection would have been extremely useful |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Jun 17 23:14:49 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 05:54:02 2022. I noticed that this is a bit before the emergency exits at Harrison Place and Porter Ave (you can see them at about 15:44). So I think it's on Harrison Place between Porter and Varick.Whatever it is, the heavy columns may be to support the buildings above because Harrison Place is a fairly narrow street. According to the city tax map, 41 Varick Avenue (corner of Harrison and Varick) was built in 1920, so it's possible the subway structure was built to underpin it. I'm not convinced it's tiled, either - at 14:50, you can see graffiti on the tile at Jefferson St yet it still reflects and diffuses light, which the mystery platform doesn't seem to. |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 18 06:20:32 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 05:54:02 2022. There was pretty clearly a crossover here. My guess was this this open area was where the control tower was. Perhaps this was used when Montrose Ave was a terminal. |
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| (1604545) | |
Subway Themed Playground - Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by R46 5636 on Sat Jun 18 07:44:07 2022, in response to Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by K. Trout on Fri Jun 17 23:14:49 2022. See my post in this thread on where the actual street location is directly above this tunnel section.As also mentioned, there's a subway-themed playground just up the block. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Jun 18 07:55:34 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:24 2022. The connection to the Long Island Railroad was removed, even though the line was supposed to take over the route and use it to Queens. Once again, if I were King, I would have connected the L.I.R.R. Bushwick branch to almost the same location as the "Ramp" allowing travelers from Jamaica thru central Queens to Manhattan. Then in Manhattan, at the far end of 14th St. ramp up into and thru the former Post Office Building and connecting to the horrid High Line to run up the westside of Manhattan into the Bronx. If I were King!! I'm just saying. |
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Re: Subway Themed Playground - Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Jun 18 13:52:05 2022, in response to Subway Themed Playground - Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by R46 5636 on Sat Jun 18 07:44:07 2022. If you mean your link to 71 White Street: https://maps.app.goo.gl/zHAxBtvj1PyajAYn7That's after the Morgan Av station. |
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Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room) |
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Posted by R46 5636 on Sat Jun 18 17:08:38 2022, in response to Re: Subway Themed Playground - Re: Question About the L BMT line, posted by K. Trout on Sat Jun 18 13:52:05 2022. Whoa, I must've been tired enough to not realize the video was heading towards 8/14th, not Canarsie. Me thinking the curve leaving the previous station was after Montrose to Morgan, not leaving Jefferson to Morgan the other way.Did a little more searching on maps. The Emergency Exit just past this mysterious platform made it much easier to pinpoint where this exact spot is; It seems the ventilation grates on the street align exactly above where this room / platform is. This is the most likely answer - the platform is simply a ventilation room. Checked historicaerials.com and wanted to say it had something to do with the former LIRR branch storing trains on the site where the building is today just past the curve leaving Jefferson heading Manhattan bound where both tunnels run directly under. The mystery platform isn't exactly where this building / former storage yard is, yet just past it right below where ventilation grates appear in the sidewalk. For both sides though, and it isn't clear in the video if the opposite direction also has one of these rooms. What IS interesting to note is there is a very long ventilation room just another block over closer to Jefferson station on the Canarsie-bound side. I've seen this mysterious long corridor when looking out the side of a Canarsie train, blurring past very quickly. On Gmaps shows the ventilation grates at a 90° angle to the tunnels right along Stewart Street. Reminds me of that mysterious long passageway just before 5/59th going SB on platform level. Visible just before entering the station. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by The Silence on Sat Jun 18 20:45:59 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 16:38:49 2022. yes, that's why Myrtle Wyckoff had a tower. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jun 18 22:15:13 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 17 16:38:49 2022. The line was supposed to be elevated at that point, with track connections to the Myrtle avenue line. |
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Re: Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jun 18 22:38:53 2022, in response to Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room), posted by R46 5636 on Sat Jun 18 17:08:38 2022. Yes! Ive also seen that long passageway just before the beginning of the 5/59 station! What is that?? |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jun 18 23:05:25 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:27 2022. The 8th Ave station on the 14th St line was opened in 1931, a year before the IND 8th Ave subway opened. There was never any serious talk about Unification or joint service via any track connection back then.As for Utica Ave projects, the biggest problem was potential flooding of any subway tunnels built under the street, south of Kings highway. Local opposition to an elevated line south of Kings Hwy as well as lack of funding shelved the projects. The IND did not have funding in the early 1930's, nor did the BoT have the money in the early 1950's, due to the bond funding diversions. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Sat Jun 18 23:09:27 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 17 16:05:24 2022. Ive never understood why the BMT didnt connect the 14 St. line to the Broadway line at Union Square. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 19 00:51:33 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jun 17 18:54:22 2022. Sorry. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 19 00:55:22 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jun 17 21:24:14 2022. No.It has a direct connection to the Broadway Brooklyn elevated,to and from Manhattan. It does Not connect to the Jamaica el portion...even though That was planned for ALSO,yet a connection was never built. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jun 19 05:22:15 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Italianstallion on Sat Jun 18 23:09:27 2022. It would have been very expensive - there would have had to be an additional platform for trains going from Canarsie up Broadway. And would have required tearing up much of Union Square. |
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Re: Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jun 19 05:52:45 2022, in response to Re: Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room), posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jun 18 22:38:53 2022. Something to do with the original layout, which had 1 track under 59th and one under 60th st....I think. |
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Re: Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room) |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 19 06:51:27 2022, in response to Re: Mysterious Canarsie Platform - Possible Answer (Ventilation Room), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jun 19 05:52:45 2022. Something to do with the original layout, which had 1 track under 59th and one under 60th st....I think. That is correct. The Queens bound track would have run under East 59th Street east of 5th Avenue. The Manhattan bound track would have run under East 60th Street. This would have facilitated access to the Queensborough Bridge. Once they decided to put the trains in the 60th Street Tunnel both tracks were routed under East 60 Street as far as 5th Avenue and then under West 59th Street west of that point. Some structural provisions for the original line can sit be found at 59th Street station on the IRT Lexington Avenue Line. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jun 19 08:20:24 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by The Silence on Sat Jun 18 20:45:59 2022. Could that express trackway been contemplated as well for a peak direction Myrtle-Chambers service ? |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Jun 19 09:33:23 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 19 00:55:22 2022. now lookie here,I was raised in south jamaica.it was,now is and forever shall be the "JAMAICA EL" |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by zac on Sun Jun 19 10:31:58 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jun 18 23:05:25 2022. Here is the present day reason that the Utica subway was never built.https://www.google.com/maps/@40.644213,-73.9327455,3a,75y,181.13h,86.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssBnFVhrgPNR1tLACqcUK6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 Look at house number 4622, it is not an optical illusion. The ground in that area is just not solid and there is a depression in the streets that runs for blocks. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by zac on Sun Jun 19 10:39:45 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Edwards! on Sat Jun 18 22:15:13 2022. By the time the line was actually built people no longer wanted els running through the streets. They killed the idea of the crosstown el from QBP to wherever before it even got on the drawing board in 1913 and it wasn't going to fly in 1923 either. They were able to build the Flushing line because the area wasn't densely populated yet, but Bushwick and Greenpoint already were. Also, the BRT would be on the hook for an el but the city would pay for the subway. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Jun 19 11:15:13 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by zac on Sun Jun 19 10:31:58 2022. Look at house number 4622, it is not an optical illusion. The ground in that area is just not solid and there is a depression in the streets that runs for blocks.That house looks like it's tilting to the right. Sure it's not distortion cause by a wide angle lens ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sun Jun 19 11:47:31 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Jun 19 11:15:13 2022. Look at the bottom rows of bricks in the fence. 
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jun 19 13:45:40 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by Avid Reader on Sat Jun 18 07:55:34 2022. I'd like to see the 14th St line terminate at the same terminal as a further 7 extension with some layup tracks that the L currently lacks. Obviously, the L couldn't be through-routed to the 7 without considerable expense of rebuilding the Steinway tunnels. Alternatively, the L could be routed up 9th Ave; the 9th Ave el was never replaced and would be useful today. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 19 14:12:29 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by zac on Sun Jun 19 10:31:58 2022. You can blame that on the high-water table underground. Engineers from the IND tried to explain that, along with potential flooding, to the local residents in 1930, but they insisted on a full subway to Ave U. It became academic when IND subway construction under Fulton St was halted in 1932 for lack of funding. Construction from Lewis Ave to Rockaway Ave resumed the following year. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jun 19 14:33:28 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Jun 19 09:33:23 2022. my momma met my pappa in south jamaica. pop grew up on ferndale avenue near sutphin. and damn straight it was called the el.i've walked from jfk to jamaica station a few times. also from jamaica station to elmont, did it neighborhood style, staying south if the tracks all the way. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jun 19 14:38:47 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by zac on Sun Jun 19 10:31:58 2022. SIMPSONS DID IT! |
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Re: Question About the L BMT line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 19 14:42:37 2022, in response to Question About the L BMT line, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 16 22:38:40 2022. I wonder if it was an unused spur off of the old Bushwick Terminal. There was a three-track storage yard between Varick & Stewart Aves. The subway tunnel goes under those tracks under Harrison Place, between the above-mentioned streets. |
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Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line) |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jun 19 15:18:25 2022, in response to Re: Another Subway Mystery Curio (Re: Question About the L BMT line), posted by zac on Sun Jun 19 10:31:58 2022. the enthusiasm grows... utica 15 Jan 1928, Sun The Standard Union (Brooklyn, New York) Newspapers.com
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