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GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Q65A on Thu Jan 13 10:53:19 2022

It looks as if NYCT had split most SMEE classes between GE and WH.
How was the performance of GE cars as compared to the performance of WH cars in the SMEE fleet? Did the differences vary according to specific car class?

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(1595242)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 13 22:11:12 2022, in response to GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Q65A on Thu Jan 13 10:53:19 2022.

The GE cars had a very slight (less than a second) delay in taking power once the t/o advanced the controller according to an old time TSS trainer I once had.

In my experiencs the GE cars had more dead motors than the Westinghouse cars.

Biggest difference I found was in the R27/30 fleet. In the mid to late 1980's the GE R30's (8250-8411), due to propulsion issues, were selected to be the rebuilt Redbirds. The Westinghouse ones (8412-8569) were not rebuilt but were painted red till retired. The R27 GE's were the first to be retired with the Westinghouse ones remaining active with a few being painted in the Redbird scheme right before retirement......the best looking scrap we ever had!

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(1595308)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 14 11:50:38 2022, in response to GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Q65A on Thu Jan 13 10:53:19 2022.

Not directly relevant to subway car performance, but the GE vs. WH rivalry is one that goes back to the earliest days of commercial electricity. I was listening to some YouTube clips about the early history of the electrical industry, and GE is descended from a company run by Thomas Edison (although he later lost control of it), while Westinghouse was of course run by its namesake, George Westinghouse. They have been in competition since the AC vs. DC "war of the currents". Subway brakes may not have much to do with that, but it's interesting that they remained competitors into the modern era, with the MTA choosing not to pick one over the other.

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(1595312)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 14 12:19:42 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 14 11:50:38 2022.

Among the R10, R16 and R30, which was superior GE or WH ?

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(1595328)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Q65A on Fri Jan 14 14:04:04 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 13 22:11:12 2022.

Thanks Bill!

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(1595336)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 14 16:16:46 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 14 12:19:42 2022.

I surely don't know, but Bill from Maspeth seems to be saying the Westinghouse ones were a bit more reliable, at least for the R-27R-30 cars, if I'm reading what he said correctly.

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(1595339)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 14 16:37:20 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 14 16:16:46 2022.

The GE R-16 was famously unreliable and almost retired after 22 years in 1977. Were they the money train?

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(1595382)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 15 02:41:52 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 14 11:50:38 2022.

The first couple of NYCTS contracts, the R-1s and R-4s had all WH control equipment. Starting with the R-6s, the cars were split between WH and GE till the R-42s which were all WH until GOH. What did change was that till the R-44s, all the brake equipment was suppled by WABCO. Then the R-56 utilized Westcode and the R-68s and R-62As used NYAB (now known as Knorrbrake). The various GOHs were also split between WABCO and NYAB except for the R-44s which were Westcode.

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(1595390)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Ble-nimx on Sat Jan 15 10:59:54 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 13 22:11:12 2022.

I had that 8172 southbound on my Bedford Pk to Euclid . New car smell, the car appearance stickers, flickering indication and need for a reset before leaving 135. Something in conductors car blew up during dynamic into 125. Was the last stop for the R27s. Less than a month later she was at 1st Avenue waiting for a boat ride.still smelt fresh. Lipstick on a pig

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(1595391)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jan 15 11:56:18 2022, in response to GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Q65A on Thu Jan 13 10:53:19 2022.

Most of the stories you will hear, here and elsewhere, about the differences and the virtues of GE vs Westinghouse are largely apocryphal and meaningless. GEs had rotating cams driven by a large motor while Westinghouse (before E-cam) had air driven magnet valve contractors. Equally reliable and equally maintenance intensive. HOWEVER Westinghouse lost in the area of group switch box fires because of the compressed air that fed such fires. Also Westinghouse wiring in the box seemed drier and more brittle.

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(1595392)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Q65A on Sat Jan 15 12:32:44 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jan 15 11:56:18 2022.

Thanks TD!

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(1595437)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Ble-nimx on Sat Jan 15 19:15:50 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jan 15 11:56:18 2022.

I remember the article on Dennis Cunningham and on car 9000. Some GEs were bad and the man hours weren't invested on finding their woes. There were alot of leaking leather cups on the unit switches, some were replaced with neoprene where needed but never bothered pulling out any more than needed to limp cars back into service until they did the 110 R10s

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(1595618)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Nasadowsk on Mon Jan 17 20:22:04 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jan 15 11:56:18 2022.

Im gonna ask this, though. How maintenance intensive are the NTTs vs the older stuff? Id imagine the inverter drives help, but the rest of the train? Has that gotten better?

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(1595621)

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Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jan 17 21:55:59 2022, in response to Re: GE vs WH in SMEE Fleet, posted by Nasadowsk on Mon Jan 17 20:22:04 2022.

My shop hadn't gotten any new tech cars by the time I retired. I can say ghat since the Centralized Electronic Shop was doing all of the inverter repairs, the shops that had the new tech cars were only changing major component parts. Thr rest if the maintenance would be about the same except for the fact that LEDs replacing fluorescent and incandescent bulbs made changing them less necessary. Beyond that, I really couldn't say.

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