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Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Apr 9 07:47:12 2021 Tuscarora Almanac - April 9, 1936 - The Book of First Runs Brooklyn, New York Independent Subway System The IND Fulton Street Line is extended westward from Hoyt - Schermerhorn Streets to a new station at Court Street. Shuttle service between these two stations is provided Monday through Saturday by the "HH Fulton Street Local". Tuscarora Almanac – April 9, 1949 – The Book of First and Last Runs Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Philadelphia Transportation Company Route 25 – Cedar Street – Memphis Street trolley line is converted to bus service. Source: “Philadelphia Trolleys in Color” , Volume II, (Morning Sun Books /1998) by Mr. William D. Volkmer Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 9 09:52:18 2021, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Apr 9 07:47:12 2021. Hopefully the Museum social media sends out some nice HH photos and station photos for this day. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Fri Apr 9 09:53:18 2021, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Apr 9 07:47:12 2021. To add for this same date 85 years ago also...The IND was able to open its new route along Fulton Street in Brooklyn, with "A" trains going out from Jay Street-Borough Hall eastward as far to a temporary terminal at Rockaway Avenue. The line was built underneath the BMT elevated route, and new stations that opened, with Court Street for the "HH" shuttle, included Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street, Lafayette Avenue, Clinton-Washington Avenue, Franklin Avenue, Nostrand Avenue, Kingston-Throop Avenue, Utica Avenue, Ralph Avenue and Rockaway Avenue. -William A. Padron ["<-Bedford Ave-<" or "<-Arlington Pl"] |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Apr 9 14:08:26 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Apr 9 09:53:18 2021. Construction began in 1929 at Arlington/Fulton, three years after the BMT backed out of the Ashland Place portal project. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Apr 9 21:19:14 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Apr 9 09:53:18 2021. And my IND sign box is now signed as, "Wash. Hts-207th St;" "Fulton-Rockaway Av;" "A-8th Ave. Express." |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by gbs on Fri Apr 9 22:03:32 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Apr 9 09:53:18 2021. How did they squeeze a four-track subway under little ol' Fulton St? I grew up in Rego Park on Queens Blvd, and it's easy to see how a four-track subway exists under that wide road, but Fulton St? It doesn't seem possible. I believe Broadway in Elmhurst and Jackson Heights was widened to accommodate the subway. Was Fulton St also widened? It still seems too narrow for there to be four tracks underneath (not to mention platforms). |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Apr 9 22:09:56 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Apr 9 21:19:14 2021. :) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 10 10:45:10 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Fri Apr 9 22:03:32 2021. Very carefully.:) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 10 16:02:10 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 10 10:45:10 2021. I would love to know how they did the multilevel Utica & Fulton complex with the el still running. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Apr 10 17:43:25 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Fri Apr 9 22:03:32 2021. Curb to curb it's about 42 feet wide, but building line to building line it's about 70 feet wide, so it should be wide enough for a 4 track subway. I think they did widen it at Utica Av. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by gbs on Sat Apr 10 22:54:50 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by VictorM on Sat Apr 10 17:43:25 2021. If I remember correctly, the Brooklyn-bound local track entering Utica stays straight along the building line, while the express track flares out to the north to accommodate the platform, and the Manhattan-bound tracks flare out even further north, so all widening of Fulton St at Utica must have been done on the north side of the street, where the Bed-Stuy street pattern is not perpendicular to Fulton, unlike on the south side where the side streets are perpendicular to Fulton. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 11 04:45:20 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Sat Apr 10 22:54:50 2021. The Brooklyn-bound local track does flair out slightly as you can see at 55:05 in this video: |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by gbs on Sun Apr 11 21:23:16 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 11 04:45:20 2021. Yes, I see that the local track does flare out a little, but the express is much more dramatic. I recall the first time I rode the A express at the RFW as we entered Utica, and how shocked I was at how we moved over to the left and dove down under some structure I couldn't figure out. I expected it to be just like entering Union Tpke or Continental Av, where the express track stays straight and level. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 12 00:58:35 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Sun Apr 11 21:23:16 2021. re: some structure I couldn't figure outDid it look like it might have been part of a provision for the Second System's Utica Ave. subway? Although the Utica Ave. second system's station crosses directly above the A, so what you saw might be something else. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 12 02:08:50 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 12 00:58:35 2021. What I did notice is that this video was taken after the station rehab since the 2 sealed up staircases that went to the upper level were gone. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by gbs on Tue Apr 13 23:50:01 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 12 00:58:35 2021. Did it look like it might have been part of a provision for the Second System's Utica Ave. subway? It definitely was the second-system provision, but back then I had no idea about that, and just wondered why our station had to go so deep. One of the IND's few mis-steps was putting the shell for the potential second-system line at Utica Av above the fully-realized Fulton St line. The shell should have been built beneath the Fulton St line. As it is now, the riders exiting at Utica Av have to walk up two extra flights every time, for no reason other than poor planning. An underneath shell would have been just as available for expansion as the above shell. They should have given the prime station location (nearer the street) to the first line built, not to some possible future line. (Spoiler alert: the second system never got built.) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Wed Apr 14 05:02:15 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Tue Apr 13 23:50:01 2021. It is also the same set up at East Broadway [IND "F"], where a proposed shell or area for a station was to have been built there.It would have been part of the so-called Worth Street subway, coming off the IND 8th Avenue Line south of Canal Street along the long tracks, and meeting with the proposed six-track South 4th Street station. whose shell is also above the Broadway station of the IND "G" Crosstown Lime. Here is a set of five (5) images taken at the mezzanine areas at the East Broadway station, and its layout would remind any subway rider or fan of the similarities at Utica Avenue. Where you see the blue painted columns in the middle mezzanine, showing a very generous large space there, is where trains could have operated through and stop at there. East Broadway (all mezzanine areas), IND 6th Avenue Line; November 14, 2011; All photos by Christopher Henderson.      -William A. Padron ["E BWAY"] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Q4 on Wed Apr 14 08:37:08 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Tue Apr 13 23:50:01 2021. The shell was probably placed on top due to the the required connection of the tunnel on each end of the shell station. Had the second system been built, the work would have been cut and cover and would have required them to dig much deeper to connect to the shell beneath Utica on both ends. Since they were going to have to go deeper at that point anyway (with the shell either below or above the station) it probably made sense and would have been less expensive to do it once and not two additional times (at both ends of the shell if it was constructed underneath and the second system was built). |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Apr 14 15:11:46 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Sun Apr 11 21:23:16 2021. Another strange thing about Utica/Fulton is that the Second System tunnel shell crosses Fulton St diagonally, from Stuyvesant to Utica. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 14 17:27:21 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Q4 on Wed Apr 14 08:37:08 2021. That would seem to make sense since most of the provisions for the second system were built above existing lines rather than below them. The only exceptions I can think of are the Worth St subway S/O Canal St and the provisions N/O Van Wyck Briarwood which are now used for Archer Ave. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 14 17:55:00 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Apr 14 15:11:46 2021. It really has no choice but to do that since the avenues N/O Fulton St intersect Fulton at a different angle from those S/O Fulton. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Apr 15 01:50:08 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Wed Apr 14 05:02:15 2021. East Broadway does need to be so deep because it's on the downgrade into a river tunnel, whereas the Worth St line had quite some distance to travel including a potential station in the vicinity of Montgomery St before it had to dive down. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Apr 15 14:08:56 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 14 17:55:00 2021. Just a shame it had not been connected to the Fulton St subway. I know about the offset intersections at Stuvyesant & Utica, at Fulton. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 15 14:19:42 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Apr 9 14:08:26 2021. Interestingly the entrances at Arlington never opened. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Apr 15 14:46:22 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 15 14:19:42 2021. The Nostrand/Fulton station had been originally intended to be a standard IND local stop. A lot of things changed, back then, when the City planners proposed a satellite business district centered there. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Thu Apr 15 14:55:01 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 15 14:19:42 2021. I believe that the Arlington Place entrance/exit was open at some point at the station there, but it all looks it was sealed up to me many, many years ago.And a reminder, on the Manhattan-bound local platform (lower level), and it is still there in 2021... Nostrand Avenue, IND Fulton Street Line; May 15, 1999; Photo by Wayne Whitehorne.  Nostrand Avenue, IND Fulton Street Line; November 17, 2007; Photo by Roberto C. Tobar.  -William A> Padron ["<-Bedford Ave-<"] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 15 16:34:16 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Apr 15 14:08:56 2021. It was supposed to be connected to the subway under S 4 St which would have partially paralleled the Bway Bkln el. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 15 16:42:53 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Thu Apr 15 14:55:01 2021. I have evidence to the contrary. They were removed and filled in with concrete in late December 1934 or January 1935, before the station opened on April 9, 1936. I am not sure what other entrances along Fulton Street are being alluded to here.This is from a column in the Brooklyn Times Union from January 20, 1935: 
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Fri Apr 16 07:10:52 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 15 16:42:53 2021. Well, whatever the case was, if anyone goes to that particular spot, on the Manhattan-bound express platform near the western end, the area is sealed up with newer looking tiles with a different shade of tan or brown in the color band. There is a locked door that would lead you in the closed area where the entrance/exit would be.Also, if the entrance/exit at Arlington Place was sealed up originally back prior to its opening day of April 9, 1936, one would have to speculate if the entrance area was boarded in wood or gated with metal fencing, much like the latter at the long closed entrances/exits at Willoughby Avenue for the Myrtle-Willoughby station of the IND "G" Crosstown line. -William A. Padron ["Nostrand"] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by gbs on Fri Apr 16 22:44:33 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by K. Trout on Thu Apr 15 01:50:08 2021. Yes, there is justification at East Broadway for the first system line to be underneath the potential second system. but not at Utica Av. There, it's just poor planning for the first system to be so unnecessarily deep, underneath the never-built second system line. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 17 02:55:12 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by gbs on Fri Apr 16 22:44:33 2021. The Utica subway had to be built closer the the surface since somewhere along the route, it was intended to emerge as an el structure continuing down Utica to its junction with Flatbush Ave. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 17 13:50:23 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by randyo on Sat Apr 17 02:55:12 2021. That would have been south of Kings Hwy. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Apr 17 17:53:00 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Wed Apr 14 05:02:15 2021. Great photos , thanks! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Apr 17 18:36:59 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Wed Apr 14 05:02:15 2021. the door in the 1st photo opens to an apx.20 foot section of subway tunnel.i,ve been in it.room for 2 tracks. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sat Apr 17 19:11:13 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Apr 17 18:36:59 2021. Yeah, I have seen that tunnel portion while peaking through there a few years ago. Imagine what might have been!-William A. Padron ["Pike's Peak"] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 19 07:01:21 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Apr 17 18:36:59 2021. I think you mean the second photo. The first photo is the upper mezzanine which connects the north (pictured) and south (the one with the ramp) mezzanines outside of the fare area. It's the lower mezzanine in the second pic that has the door(s). The door you can peek into is barely visible at the far end of the picture along the left wall. The blue pillars are where the Worth St subway would have passed through. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Apr 19 08:08:04 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 19 07:01:21 2021. Yeah, it is indeed in the second and third photos where it has that door, seen on the left side of that image, but barely though. If you go to the train platform downstairs, one section of the ceiling on each of the "F" line tracks is seen in an angular manner, and mostly likely for the provisions where the proposed Worth Street Subway line would have run over.-William A. Padron ["E BWAY"] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 19 10:51:26 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Apr 19 08:08:04 2021. Yeah, I've seen it. The ceiling structure extends across the station, and implies that the intention was for 2 tracks and 2 side platforms. In the lower mezzanine, you can imagine how the stairways from the upper mezzanine and from the F train platform would allow people onto the platforms for the Worth St subway, though I thought the platform clearances would have been a little tight.On a related note, they replaced the door leading to the abandoned section of the mezzanine in the last pic, so you can peek in there too. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Apr 19 17:25:32 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 19 10:51:26 2021. Yeah, like what you said about the ceiling at East Broadway on the train level platform, plus also in detail of the center mezzanine door too. Archival images from Joseph Brennan's Abandoned NYC Stations page.   Oh, those new retro tiles at East Broadway, here is a recent image posted on Wikipedia.  -William A. Padron ["E BWAY"] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Apr 19 17:34:52 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Apr 19 17:25:32 2021. that door leads to a 20 foot section of the worth st. subway. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 21 12:27:27 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Apr 19 17:34:52 2021. I was wondering why the tunnel section would go so far beyond the station perimeter, but then I remembered that one of the exits does go some distance beyond, so it's possible that the Worth St section was extended along with it. Still, I believe I've seen pictures of it, and it really doesn't go far. You definitely can't tell by peeking through the door. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936 |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 21 13:23:21 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 21 12:27:27 2021. 20 feet doesn’t sound that far. |
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Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 24 05:02:16 2021, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for April 9, 1936, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Apr 15 14:46:22 2021. The streets there are quite narrow from what I remember, necessitating a two-level station regardless. |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 24 15:20:49 2021, in response to Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 24 05:02:16 2021. Wally, we have been through this before! Go to nycsubway.org, to the IND Fulton St Line, and check out the Nostrand Ave station. It clearly says that it had originally been designed as a standard IND local stop on one level. Yes, an IND 4 track station with 2 island platforms would not have fit there. I believe, as I have said before, that the station setup was changed when City planners wanted to have a satellite business district there with an express stop. It would have been centered at Nostrand & Fulton, extending for about a 5 block radius. Hoping to benefit from this new district, City planners convinced bank director, Charles Betts, to build his Brevoort Savings Bank's main headquarters on Nostrand, between Fulton and Macon. It replaced the old Fulton Theater and expanded the Brevoort's bank's branch on Macon St.. Unfortunately, the bank opened in 1932, at the height of the Depression. No other companies followed suit there and the satellite district never materialized. |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 24 20:51:13 2021, in response to Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 24 15:20:49 2021. I have read that either Nostrand Av or Bergen St had to be bi-level because of a bank vault preventing the subway from expanding further outwards under the sidewalk. I have also read that the shell of Nostrand Av may have already been poured before the decision was made to convert it to an express station, so the solution was to use the mezzanine space for the upper level platforms. Do you know which of those are the case for Nostrand? Is that the bank in question? |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 24 21:35:58 2021, in response to Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 24 20:51:13 2021. The Brooklyn Eagle edition for 02/15/1931 describes the subway as being built building line to building line in a narrower section of Fulton St, between Bedford & Nostrand. There was no mention of a bank vault from the new Brevoort Savings bank. Since the new bank combined the properties of its former Macon St bank branch, plus the large space from the old Fulton Theater, there would have been no need to put the vault under the sidewalk.Although I have never found any story about building the express stop from a previously poured flooring for a local stop, this may have been the case. I have always thought of the Nostrand/Fulton station as an underground 4 track version of a Manhattan Elevated bi-level hump station. Perhaps, that may have been its inspiration! |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Apr 25 11:33:31 2021, in response to Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 24 21:35:58 2021. Remember at Nostrand Avenue, the express platforms are extra wide. The local platforms could have been built as planned and the mezzanine destroyed to raise the express tracks. I would assume that there is no hollow space between the inside walls at the Nostrand Ave. station |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 25 14:17:44 2021, in response to Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by jabrams on Sun Apr 25 11:33:31 2021. Our resident archaelogist, TUNNELRAT, might be able to answer that one! |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Apr 25 14:59:48 2021, in response to Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 25 14:17:44 2021. I thought he was an anarchist. When even he shows up anarchy reigns. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 25 15:05:39 2021, in response to Re: Nostrand Avenue (A) Station, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Apr 25 14:59:48 2021. So cruel!!! (He-He-He!!!) |
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