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| Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries (1573711) | |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by zac on Tue Apr 20 07:48:21 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 18:44:16 2021. There was a post here that showed Babylon to Montauk was the longest non-electrified segment so that is the furthest they ever had to go even if initially they wouldn't use that route. If they aren't thinking about the longest stretch they should be. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by zac on Tue Apr 20 07:49:40 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by trains61 on Mon Apr 19 21:07:54 2021. My point being they aren't used in propulsion. How exactly they are otherwise used doesn't really matter to the point. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by trains61 on Tue Apr 20 08:36:30 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by zac on Tue Apr 20 07:49:40 2021. Words matter. While the discussion at hand was that the entire train, inclusive of propulsion, would run off the batteries, that is not what occurs on the B-787. Your post infers something else. Poster Jsun21 gets it. Just trying to be technically accurate here.The Lurkers'Guild Cactus |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 09:22:31 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:45:54 2021. Amtrak does not allow cab cars in lead on third rail powered trains. due to gaps in NYP so no on LIRR and if at anytime MN running into NYP they must have dual mode on each end of train.overhead powered trains do not have large gaps in power and are not affected by rule. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 09:22:44 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by zac on Mon Apr 19 18:10:12 2021. Remember too that the latest 787 aircraft use batteries to fly although not to provide propulsionNot what Boeing says. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 09:23:55 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:47:39 2021. hydrogen would ban train from any and all NY tunnels. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 09:23:55 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:47:39 2021. hydrogen would ban train from any and all NY tunnels. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 20 09:50:07 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:47:39 2021. Hydrogen is less efficient than battery. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Tue Apr 20 10:53:45 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 06:15:23 2021. I'm amazed they even let the dual modes in. Hydrogen would run afoul of all sorts of Hazmat stuff, probably. Hydrogen sucks because it's so hard to contain, anyway. It's worse than helium, and also, yeah, it burns too. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 11:18:37 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Tue Apr 20 10:53:45 2021. They've been letting dual-modes in since the NH started running FL-9's. But we no longer have that open cut west of the staion. That saved their ass during sevral fires, a NYS Turbos being one of them. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Apr 20 11:40:22 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 18:23:25 2021. will the GP-7s currently in use be able to access the ESA tunnels ? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 13:06:20 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 20 09:50:07 2021. But probably doesn't require as messy mining operations.I'm guessing that producing solar cells that can make hydrogen out of water and sunlight requires less ecological mess than digging lithium out of the ground. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 20 14:03:00 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 13:06:20 2021. You’re completely ignoring the ecological mess from all the wasted energy. Either you use fossil fuels to make that electricity, or use fossil fuels to produce the hydrogen (which is how most hydrogen gas is currently produced), or you end up with radioäctive waste from the nuclear reactors you’d have to build. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 20 16:07:00 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Tue Apr 20 10:53:45 2021. Helium offers no trouble at all since it is an inert gas and non combustible. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:30:16 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 13:06:20 2021. hydrogen is man made with lots of electricity, kind of not saving shit but moving the problem. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:31:20 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Apr 20 11:40:22 2021. nope, too high. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 16:50:51 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Tue Apr 20 10:53:45 2021. Hydrogen would run afoul of all sorts of Hazmat stuff, probably.I've yet to see any evidence that hydrogen is significantly more dangerous (any more dangerous?) than gasoline. Both have to be treated very carefully. And diesel fuel and Li batteries have to be treated very carefully too. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:51:34 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 16:50:51 2021. have you seen Hindenburg ? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 16:54:20 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:30:16 2021. Yes, but the world is developing technologies that can generate electricity from sunlight really, really cheaply, but not on demand.Therefore storage becomes really critical. And all the storage solutions (Li batteries, pumped storage reservoirs, hydrogen, flow batteries) still have their issues. Let's figure out which storage solutions are best; maybe different ones for different applications. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 16:56:03 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 20 16:07:00 2021. That means you can't use it as a fuel. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 16:56:04 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:51:34 2021. What about it? How many gasoline and diesel powered airplanes and cars have gone up in flames too?Of course hydrogen can be handled badly. So can all other forms of energy storage. I'm sure someone even drowns now and then at a pumped storage facility. :) |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 16:56:10 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Tue Apr 20 10:53:45 2021. You sound like you know nothing about the properties of either hydrogen or helium.Hydrogen is not hard to contain, but it's very expensive to produce, making any energy produced by it equally expensive. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 17:03:57 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 06:14:01 2021. They sure got the wrong HEP generation, don't they? Metra runs 11-gallery-car trains with the HEP of a single F40PH/PHM or MP36. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 17:07:59 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 17:03:57 2021. continous HEP generation is far less than on Dual mode trains were load drops and full starting slams the system |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 17:20:03 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 17:03:57 2021. And GO Transit with 12 car trains. I have no idea how these things work. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 17:22:22 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Apr 20 11:40:22 2021. They were built to handle 12'10" tall M-1's, and that's about it. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 17:23:39 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 16:56:10 2021. Anything to avoid electrification. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 17:35:00 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:51:34 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Conception"The designer of the vessel speculated the fire may have begun in the bunk area, possibly sparked by a lithium battery." |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 18:21:28 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 17:23:39 2021. Electrification is very expensive. And with ridership flatlining of late and (as an example) the success of the MN Genesis engines w/the shoreliner coaches, especially on the Hudson line, theres no real groundswell to get 3d rail to Poughkeepsie. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 18:32:24 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 18:21:28 2021. It should not be so expensive. MN loco hauled trains are also limited to 7 cars. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 18:52:17 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 18:32:24 2021. They can run with 8 in special situations. Service disruptions, snowstorms etc. One time in a snowstorm, I was on an 8 car bomb train local from GCT to Poughkeepsie when enough electrics shit out. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 19:53:13 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 18:52:17 2021. They last 20 years, and have an MDBF that is a fraction of an MU. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 20 20:06:43 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 20 16:56:04 2021. My understanding is H is more volatile, for example if you were to drop a match in Jet Fuel or Kerosene it wouldn't light. Hydrogen will be more easily ignited.If for example in a collision a fuel tank were breached the main concern is environmental clean up, the fuel being less easily ignited. Hydrogen loves igniting in confined spaces, so that's a bit different. In this case handling it badly would be putting it in the environment in which it likes to explode. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 20 20:06:54 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 18:52:17 2021. The P32-DM running for Amtrak pulled the whole Lake Shore up the river when construction was taking place in Albany. It is partially an acceleration issue where stops are frequent, rather than HEP. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Apr 20 20:55:56 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 16:31:20 2021. so a train laying down in the ESA tunnels with no power on the third rail is essentially stuck there unless an MTA diesel can be brought in to rescue it ? Wow - did they plan for such a contingency ? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 21:02:12 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Apr 20 17:07:59 2021. None of the DM trains are push-pull on LIRR. This would be with DE30ACs FWICS. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 21:03:06 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Apr 20 20:55:56 2021. Thats the way its been done on the LIRR for decades. When an electric train crapped out, (either LIRR or Amtrak) in the east river tunnel, there were two switchers with compatible couplers that would be able to drag anything out of there into daylight. IIRC, that job used to be called "Harold Protect" since they were parked near Harold Tower in Sunnyside waiting for orders to "saddle up!" |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 21:20:20 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 18:21:28 2021. Electrification is expensive, but not "very" if the demand is there. How much did it cost to electrify from White Plains to Southeast and from Hicksville to Ronkonkoma? It was actually way cheaper even in 2021 dollars than one might expect, e.g. in 2021 dollars, the 1987 electrification to Ronkonkoma works out to about $18 million per mile. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 21:53:33 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 21:20:20 2021. "...if the demand is there"Thats the key right there. But it should be taken on a case by case basis. I rode the Upper Hudson line for @30 years. All the money that was poured into that line resulted in thru the roof ridership increases. With the Genesis engines & the Shoreliner coaches replacing SPVs & tired 2nd hand steam heated coaches coupled with more thru trains and a +90% on time performance, there is no demand for 3d rail extention. Now on the Pt Jefferson line, if only the LIRR went for Genesis engines with Shoreliner coaches instead of the junk they run there now, maybe they too would not care about a 3d rail extention. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 20 22:00:49 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 21:03:06 2021. Yes, there were some difficulties getting a compliant diesel for a rescue. The railroad was toying with the idea of a battery loco for the rescue. So that's one of the reasons why Siemens needs to get this right. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 22:10:27 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 21:53:33 2021. With the Genesis engines & the Shoreliner coaches replacing SPVs & tired 2nd hand steam heated coaches coupled with more thru trains and a +90% on time performance, there is no demand for 3d rail extentionFalse equivalence. And besides, the service started with Shoreliners being hauled by doubleheaded FL9s and single-unit FL9ACs; also not likely that the P32AC-DMs are ever going to have a MDBF that's longer than any EMU; so an investment of maybe $720 million for 40 miles of third rail would not be worth it, including increases in acceleration? How about eliminating the last two late-night Poughkeepsie-Croton shuttle trains? 30 trains a day in each direction during weekdays indicates demand being there. And especially for increases in average speed. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by The silence on Tue Apr 20 22:14:59 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 19 22:44:05 2021. A Tesla Model S can go 400 miles on a full charge. Battery capacity has increased drastically in recent years. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 22:16:32 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The silence on Tue Apr 20 22:14:59 2021. And for how many years? And how far in cold weather? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 22:30:11 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 22:10:27 2021. "Shoreliners being hauled by doubleheaded FL9s and single-unit FL9ACs;"While still maintaining a +90% on time performance. When MN got a hold of the old FL-9s, they rebuilt them with HEP units & got many more good years out of them, but rarely if ever ran on 3d rail. "...including increases in acceleration?" Not noticed, therefore not missed. "not likely that the P32AC-DMs are ever going to have a MDBF that's longer than any EMU" True, but each EMU is considered an electric locomotive, thus subject to more inspections & FRA scrutiny. That equates to a major cost of labor factor considering the # of EMUs needed to maintain the service that shoreliners now provide, thus a hit on the overall bottom line. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 23:06:32 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 22:30:11 2021. Not noticed, therefore not missedNonsequitur. There are plenty of electrified lines to compare in order to extrapolate what would be gained. And the high platforms are already built, although (to my mind) it's a shame that the EMUs were not built with the automatic trapdoors that the turbine trains on the LIRR had. each EMU is considered an electric locomotive, thus subject to more inspections & FRA scrutiny. That equates to a major cost of labor factor considering the # of EMUs needed to maintain the service that shoreliners now provide, thus a hit on the overall bottom line Cab cars are considered locomotives too by the FRA. Sometimes more than one cab car would be on a push-pull diesel train, requiring FRA inspection either way in spite of not being in use. And there is plenty either way to offset any "hit" the bottom line might take in theory. Even number of EMUs. Anyhow, Metro-North is still considering all-electric push-pulls, since we come to that. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 23:43:19 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 20 20:06:54 2021. The "whole Lake Shore" does not originate in New York; remember the Boston section. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by The silence on Wed Apr 21 00:09:52 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 20 22:16:32 2021. Done properly... it can still get close to the same range in the cold. And they don’t expect these M7s to remain off line anywhere near as long.Currently the estimated minimum life span of a new Tesla battery is eight years. Tesla says you should get about 500,000 miles from it. And they’re supposedly working on a million mile battery. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by sloth on Wed Apr 21 01:18:27 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 20 22:00:49 2021. There's nothing like operating a compliant diesel. Or cab car. I had a nice trip to Speonk with 416 / 5014 a few weeks ago, just stopping itself on a dime the whole way out and back while I considered what I was going to clog my arteries with after the run.Putting on my thinking cap here, this might explain why some people think the M3's will make a return. What could possibly go wrong? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 01:44:29 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by The silence on Wed Apr 21 00:09:52 2021. Yeah, "estimated", "done properly". Weasel words noted. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 01:45:52 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 20 21:53:33 2021. LIRR runs far longer MU consists than MNRR does. Most NYPS trains are 10 to 12 cars. Most Huntington trains connect with a Port Jeff train in one direction or the other. Then their MUs cycle on all the branches all week. It would make no sense to have all these Huntington trains, which are all locals, be loco-hauled trains. The entire Huntington / Port Jeff service pattern looks nothing like the Hudson Line. Poughkeepsie trains are not the Croton-Harmon locals.Ridership is poor east of Huntington due to the Huntington transfer time and uncompetitive with the electric Ronkonkoma service. MUs do a hell of a lot better on hills, such as approaching Cold Spring Harbor,and there are more of them east of Northport. Dual-mode trains on locals would be slow. NJT scheduled running times on the NEC and the M&E are a disgrace compared to what they were in the 1980's because they are hauled by electric locos. That means more train sets needed to run the service, which costs money. Whining about FRA can inspections is only something that NJT does because the MMC is lazy. NJT has few MUs and their farebox recovery is no better than MN or LIRR. |
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