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| LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries (1573711) | |
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| (1573711) | |
LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 11:31:52 2021 Pilot program with Alstom to allow the M7s to run into diesel territory on their own. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Mon Apr 19 13:01:33 2021, in response to LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 11:31:52 2021. So, basically the LIRR is finally admitting that dual mode diesels are a failure, 20 years after the fact?Wonder what Alstom's thinking? My guess is a diet for the piggy M-7s, and getting rid of 1/2 the propulsion, which won't be needed after a diet.. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 19 13:08:34 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Mon Apr 19 13:01:33 2021. The NH/PC/MN have used dual modes for decades. Why does it work there and not on the LIRR? |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:41:02 2021, in response to LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 11:31:52 2021. Glad they are thinking out of the box. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:48:29 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 19 13:08:34 2021. Mostly Poughkeepsie trains. Wassaic and Danbury service does not amount to much. They electrfied to Brewster to get rid of them. |
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| (1573719) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 13:50:11 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Mon Apr 19 13:01:33 2021. basically the LIRR is finally admitting that dual mode diesels are a failure, 20 years after the fact?Batteries will be a bigger failure. And LIRR's majority diesel fleet is not dual mode anyhow. Not to mention that there is not enough room in NYP or ESA to shoehorn any more trains in. My guess is a diet for the piggy M-7s Funny how the lightweight M1s didn't last as long as their forebears, did they? LIRR's ones didn't even reach 30 years old while some of their "piggy" MP54s lasted twice as long. |
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| (1573720) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:51:50 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Mon Apr 19 13:01:33 2021. M-7's are electric juice hogs and 67-ton hippotamuses with inferior timetable performance to an M-1, itself little improved from the MP54.I hope they can find lithium or whatever batteries that can handle them. Maybe install a piece of 3rd rail in Oyster Bay and Port Jeff with a mini-suubstation to recharge when terminating. |
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| (1573721) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 13:52:07 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:41:02 2021. No way any of those will hold a charge from Babylon to Montauk, never mind Ronkonkoma to Greenport or Huntington to PJ. Never mind not sustaining heat or AC. |
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| (1573722) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:55:17 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 13:50:11 2021. M-1's had many electronic deficincies, never got a midlife GOH, and simply went dead with 5" of snow. But notice some M-2's went on for 45 years. |
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| (1573723) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:56:18 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 13:52:07 2021. They said Oyster Bay (17 miles form East Williston) and Port Jeff. |
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| (1573724) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 19 14:19:43 2021, in response to LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 11:31:52 2021.      |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 19 14:45:14 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:48:29 2021. Not really a responsive answer. I've been wondering the same thing myself.LIRR ssems to have great trouble running dual mode trains. MNRR has no trouble. Most of their dual modes are to Pgh, but they have no trouble running them to Wassaic or Danbury either. I believe electrification to Southeast was justified by the rapid growth of patronage from NWP to Southeast. The electrics accelerate much faster, and there are a lot of stations between Southeast and NWP. Consider all the hours of commuter time that have been saved by having electric trains on that route. In contrast, there are far fewer stations between Croton and Pgh, as well as fewer passengers, so electrification would save less passenger time. |
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| (1573728) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 19 14:55:07 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 19 13:08:34 2021. Part of the reason is that NH & MN use off the shelf locos of proven technology and design. LIRR did not go that route. |
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| (1573729) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 14:58:13 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 19 14:45:14 2021. The Super Steels are junk.But traditionally, the LIRR knows how to run MU's, dovetail at Jamaica, run diesel Scoots, and Hunterspoint trains. But don't ask them to do anything else. |
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| (1573732) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 19 15:39:30 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:55:17 2021. Considering the M-1s had the almost identical brake system to NYCT’s R-44s that made them the R-44s of the LIRR. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 19 15:41:31 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 13:52:07 2021. Do the M-7s and newer have regenerative braking like NYCT’s NTTs? If so then whenever the train stops, the batteries can partially recharge. |
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| (1573734) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 19 15:43:49 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 19 15:41:31 2021. I believe they do... |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 15:46:04 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by nasadowsk on Mon Apr 19 13:01:33 2021. whole plan seem to repeat the experiments done with Garrett and GE Turbine M-1's. |
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| (1573736) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 16:23:15 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 19 15:41:31 2021. Not without being connected to a power source. The third rail would be these batteries' power source. |
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| (1573737) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 16:34:45 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 19 15:41:31 2021. So the juice would return to the batteries, as opposed to the 3rd rail ? |
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| (1573738) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 16:36:29 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 16:34:45 2021. question is how fast and how much will batteries allow. |
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| (1573739) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 16:38:30 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 16:36:29 2021. also how explosive will batteries be ?? or how explosive will battery gasses be ?? NYFD probably wants to know. |
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| (1573741) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 16:54:30 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 16:38:30 2021. Isn't there some light rail equivalent in Europe ?Of course M-7's are anything but. Their flat wheels along Atlantic Ave viaduct set off car alarms. |
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| (1573742) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:13:56 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 16:54:30 2021. problem is tunnels and batteries , but we will see what experts have to say :-) before and after the poof .. |
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| (1573743) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Q4 on Mon Apr 19 17:15:40 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 14:58:13 2021. Perhaps if they had gone with the Genesis instead of the junk they brought, it would have worked out better. |
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| (1573744) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:16:40 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:13:56 2021. years ago I suggested a green goat for GCT switcher, charged of third rail with original battery package , I had to sit trough 4 lectures on batteries and fires and explosions and how I was off my rocker to push it. |
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| (1573745) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:16:40 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:13:56 2021. years ago I suggested a green goat for GCT switcher, charged of third rail with original battery package , I had to sit trough 4 lectures on batteries and fires and explosions and how I was off my rocker to push it. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:18:27 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Q4 on Mon Apr 19 17:15:40 2021. well next thingy the Charger Dual mode will be pretty much standard for MNCR-LIRR- Amtrak (empire service) |
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| (1573749) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 17:50:30 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:16:40 2021. What are they going to get for LIRR ESA tunnel rescues ? |
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| (1573750) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 17:53:28 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 17:18:27 2021. Judging by Chicago (winters, and Amtrak maintenance, or some combo of each), they are nothing to look forward to. Much of the Midwest Charger fleet collapsed in February, rescued by national network P42's and Dash-8's, and 2 of the 34 have blown holes in their engine blocks. |
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| (1573751) | |
Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by zac on Mon Apr 19 18:10:12 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 13:52:07 2021. You are all underestimating the capabilities of modern batteries. These will certainly last over those distances, if you have enough of them.Regenerative braking will add some to the distance they can travel, but don't expect miracles from that. But the real ace in the hole of a battery powered train like this is the third rail or catenary. As soon as the train gets back into either's territory it will start to charge, whether moving or not. So the question is how many Kwh does it take to get from the end of the 3rd rail out to Montauk and back, and how much capacity can you build into the train. My educated guess is you can build a lot into the train. Remember too that the latest 787 aircraft use batteries to fly although not to provide propulsion. And my car gets me from Brooklyn to Montauk and back on a single charge, but just barely. Depends on how hard I push it. Scale that up to train size and no problem. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 18:22:49 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 16:23:15 2021. then when the train is off line, the battery becomes the power source and the regenerative brakes recharge that instead. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 18:23:25 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 17:50:30 2021. supposedly have diesels on order, based on NYCTA power. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Apr 19 18:26:14 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 17:53:28 2021. again snow is not same snow other cities experience , so despite childhood boo boo's manufacturers make changes, it took GE 3 years to get past winter woos. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 18:44:16 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by zac on Mon Apr 19 18:10:12 2021. Eng specifically said where they would go, and it is not Montauk. But they should be looking at the Patchogue Scoots, but they are not intially. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 20:13:03 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 18:22:49 2021. Regen brakes would lose more power to the ground and by heat radiation than would make it to the batteries via the rectifiers. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 19 20:17:06 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by zac on Mon Apr 19 18:10:12 2021. No, I'm not underestimating; I suspect many here are overestimating and are expecting something close to a perpetual motion machine. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by trains61 on Mon Apr 19 21:07:54 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by zac on Mon Apr 19 18:10:12 2021. Sorry but your statement about 787's is false.The Lurkers'Guild Aviation Division |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 19 22:09:01 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by trains61 on Mon Apr 19 21:07:54 2021. The batteries are backup power...primary power comes from generators of the engines..(or in some situations the APU) There is also a RAT for backup power in flight. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by trains61 on Mon Apr 19 22:33:38 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by trains61 on Mon Apr 19 21:07:54 2021. Yes ,I know. The poster stated that the aircraft ran off the batteries which is incorrect.The Lurkers'Guild Boeing and Airbus |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 19 22:44:05 2021, in response to LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The Silence on Mon Apr 19 11:31:52 2021. Will they have any room left for passengers after they load the car with enough battery power to move it any significant distance with something to spare in case of a problem? Or will it be one battery car for each passenger car? It just seems rather impractical unless they've developed significantly better technology that I was aware existed. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:45:54 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 19 14:45:14 2021. They didn’t order enough of them. That reminds me of a question I’ve been meaning to ask on here though, can a set with a DM30AC on one end and a DE30AC on the other end operate to Penn as long as the DE30AC remains shut off west of Harold except during emergencies?I’ve seen a couple of videos of Amtrak running diesel trains through Penn, so I figured that technically this should be possible. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:47:39 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by zac on Mon Apr 19 18:10:12 2021. I would also like to see them experiment with Hydrogen. Once the battery runs out the train can start running on Hyrdrogen perhaps until the earlier of when it gets back to third rail territory or refueled. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:50:18 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 19 13:48:29 2021. Apparently CDOT is looking to increase dual mode service to Danbury as well. I didn’t think that demand would be great for Poughkeepsie-level service up there, but the same probably could have been said for the Upper Hudson Line pre-Gennies. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 19 22:51:36 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:47:39 2021. Hydrogen isn't faring as well as hoped. Here's a good read from the UK:https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/hydrail-breezes-in-the-uk/ |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 19 22:54:53 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:47:39 2021. I'd be curious to see what the FDNY would have to say about LIRR running w/onboard hydrogen in their tunnels. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 20 01:58:16 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by trains61 on Mon Apr 19 22:33:38 2021. I think what the poster was tryin got say is that the sub systems like the lighting and AC run off batteries but the actual propulsion of the plane does not. Also, more than likely, the running of the jet engines themselves keeps the batteries fully charged. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 20 02:33:45 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 20 01:58:16 2021. They don't though, they are run by electricity from Generators. As with most aircraft using the ship battery is minimal. The anomaly of the 787 many features are electrically actuated that aren't normally and that it is a 'bleeds free' aircraft, as in energy from the compressor stage of the engine isn't syphoned off for pressurization of other uses.Aircraft sitting on the generators is very normal. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 06:14:01 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 19 22:45:54 2021. No.Amtrak requirment is to top and tail any push-pull train with a 3rd rail equipped vehicles. IOW, the engineer must be in such a vehicle. Amtrak does not run any dual-mode trains that are push-pull. All are in pull mode. Those are Empire trains. Keystone trains have a Metroliner cab car, but run off catenary. DM's are deemed eletric locomotives per LIRR union contract, whether they go into electric mode or not. Mixing DE on one end and DM on the other end means the engineer swicthes type of motive power with in his shift, and gets something like 2 or 4 hours bonus pay. HEP is only good for 6 cars. Most of the dual-mode trains are 8 cars, which means they must short-loop the HEP cables mid consist. So you can't shut off the DE unit. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 20 06:15:23 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 19 22:54:53 2021. They'd shoot it down in a NY minute. |
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