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Subway Costs

Posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 08:50:10 2021

I was recently looking at some NTD data and I became curious. Does any of you here know how much it costs to actually operate the subway? As in, is it solely based off of the work programs, individual employee costs, and subway car maintenance? This also led me to wonder because the subway operates on electric (more of a natural resource) compared to gas/diesel (where it has to be extracted and man made per se), is it like a fixed cost or is it based on use? Just for a basic example, one train that is at Far Rockaway is not going to be using power at 207th street or along the line elsewhere.

Thank you in advance if you have some insight or better understanding.

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(1569425)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by Andy on Wed Feb 24 10:32:39 2021, in response to Subway Costs, posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 08:50:10 2021.

Use this link to open the Feb. 2021 MTA Board report for NYC Transit:

https://new.mta.info/document/29941

Scroll to page 109 which lists all operating expenses.

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(1569432)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by JAzumah on Wed Feb 24 11:32:34 2021, in response to Subway Costs, posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 08:50:10 2021.

It cost around $350/hour/subway car. Figure 80% of that is variable costs.

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(1569437)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by AlM on Wed Feb 24 12:31:21 2021, in response to Subway Costs, posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 08:50:10 2021.

Commercial electricity is usually charged on a mix of usage and maximum demand.

NYCT likely pays $x per megawatt of demand (maximum power it can obtain at any given time) plus $y per megawatt hour of electricity actually used. The $y amount might or might not vary with time of day.

NYCT obviously has all sorts of costs.

- Labor cost for its operating employees
- Management labor
- Outside contractors of all sorts
- Supplies
- Electricity
- Fuel (diesel, gasoline, natural gas)
- Equipment purchases (typically charged to a capital budget rather than an operating budget)
- Depreciation (spreading out of capital costs over time)

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(1569440)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Feb 24 13:15:07 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 24 12:31:21 2021.

I think that the subway power deal involves NYPA pass thru which is very different than Commercial Tariffs.

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(1569443)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 13:49:53 2021, in response to Subway Costs, posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 08:50:10 2021.

Thank you all!

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(1569451)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Wed Feb 24 14:21:22 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by pragmatist on Wed Feb 24 13:15:07 2021.

Correct MTA gets power from NYPA so does my employer, totally different rates and demand charges.
ConEd still delivers it and there are different delivery fee schedule as well.

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by AlM on Wed Feb 24 14:22:22 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by pragmatist on Wed Feb 24 13:15:07 2021.

Sure, but I would be flabbergasted if it doesn't involve a combination of maximum possible demand and energy used. Both are way to expensive not to be part of the formula.

And Con Edison is involved somehow. When Sandy flooded the Con Edison 14th Street power plant and transformers, the subways from 34th to lower Manhattan were out.

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(1569458)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 24 15:19:54 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 24 12:31:21 2021.

It would be useful to tease out the healthcare costs.
For comparison, the AC Transit agency in the SF Bay Area claims that 69% of its costs are labor related--hourly,healthcare, pension,
Note I report what is claimed; I have no way of judging the veracity.

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(1569475)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 24 18:44:11 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 24 15:19:54 2021.

For comparison, the AC Transit agency in the SF Bay Area claims that 69% of its costs are labor related--hourly,healthcare, pension,
Note I report what is claimed; I have no way of judging the veracity.

Labor is usually the largest single cost item by far for all types of businesses.

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(1569510)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 25 00:54:30 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 24 18:44:11 2021.

That’s one of the reasons why the NYCTA stopped cutting trains overnight on most lines. It was found that cutting/adding trains and putting in/laying up the excess cars required more station drilling T/Os that would end up costing more than the extra car mileage.

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(1569523)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Thu Feb 25 08:28:31 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 24 18:44:11 2021.

The older tiers of the pension are the most costly.
Newer tier pensions are just like an IRA.


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(1569692)

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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by BusRider on Fri Feb 26 23:10:58 2021, in response to Subway Costs, posted by BusRider on Wed Feb 24 08:50:10 2021.

After reading your replies, the NTD data, and the MTA chart. Not considering passengers but due to these costs is this another reason why services have become more streamlined? Kind of like how overnight service is now without passengers, it really doesn’t affect the cost of the actual service, it’s the same amount of staff and power.

With that being said, when developing a work program for a new service pattern how can you tell If it’s really cost savings? You might say obvious train crews and over time, but I’m thinking in terms of service miles and amount of equipment.



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Re: Subway Costs

Posted by BusRider on Fri Feb 26 23:16:28 2021, in response to Re: Subway Costs, posted by BusRider on Fri Feb 26 23:10:58 2021.

I failed to mention in the previous post, how is depreciation determined for a subway car, especially when the life expectancy can often be outnumbered? Look how long the 32’s have withstand!

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