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| Clock is ticking (1561999) | |
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| (1561999) | |
Clock is ticking |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Nov 24 17:56:56 2020 Amtrak Tunnel |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Nov 24 20:39:14 2020, in response to Clock is ticking, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Nov 24 17:56:56 2020. Those tunnels are living on borrowed time. |
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| (1562007) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by andy on Tue Nov 24 22:17:11 2020, in response to Clock is ticking, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Nov 24 17:56:56 2020. It’s important to remember that prior to Trump becoming President, there was a coherent plan to build a new pair of tunnels (Gateway Project) that would allow the current tunnels to be rebuilt after the new ones opened. Trump and his incompetent Transportation Secretary, Elaine Chao, deliberately sabotaged the Gateway Project and put roadblocks in the way of starting it. So four year later, nothing has been done and the tunnels continue to deteriorate. It’s no coincidence that Elaine Chao’s husband is Mitch McConnell.With Amtrak Joe ready to assume office, things will hopefully get better. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Nov 24 22:42:30 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by andy on Tue Nov 24 22:17:11 2020. While the GOP since 2016 certainly takes a great deal of blame, Chris Christie royally screwed up in 2010 when he cancelled the first tunnel project. |
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| (1562014) | |
Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 24 23:36:12 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by andy on Tue Nov 24 22:17:11 2020. No, that's not the case. Not a thing you said is factual. |
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| (1562015) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 24 23:36:56 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by R30A on Tue Nov 24 22:42:30 2020. Rubbish. THE Tunnel had nothing to do with Gateway, and was never intended to take any pressure off the original North River Tunnels. |
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| (1562030) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Nov 25 09:14:33 2020, in response to Clock is ticking, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Nov 24 17:56:56 2020. Can't the salt deposits be cleaned off the walls? There are few trains at night, so you'd think they could close one tube during night hours and do pressure-washing or something to remove the salt. (I'm sure they can determine how much pressure is safe). It's hard to believe that salt residue remains there after eight years and continues to do damage.But yeah, Biden will presumably restart the Gateway project from where it was stopped when Trump took over. Hopefully a new tunnel will be ready before either of the old tubes completely fails. |
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| (1562031) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by DieselBusFan on Wed Nov 25 09:42:43 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by R30A on Tue Nov 24 22:42:30 2020. Even though there were numerous issues with NJT plan for a new tunnel and station which Christie capriciously cancelled, the fact is that this project would have been completed by today. And something would have been much better than nothing. We have nothing today, and I am just waiting for catastrophic failure of the tunnels if there is, for example, another super-storm. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 10:33:22 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by R30A on Tue Nov 24 22:42:30 2020. ARC project was defective by design. Money should have been reapplied to Gateway, but Christie pissed it away on highways to avoid raising the gas tax, which he eventually had to do anyway. |
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| (1562035) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 10:35:02 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Nov 25 09:14:33 2020. Salt is corrosive and penetrates. It doesn't simply get washed off. The tunnels needs to be re-lined with fresh concrete and benchwall. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 25 16:50:18 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 24 23:36:56 2020. Amtrak announced Gateway plans before Christie cancelled THE Tunnel, for the reason stated by Olog-hai. |
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| (1562057) | |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Nov 25 17:35:53 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by andy on Tue Nov 24 22:17:11 2020.  Partisan hack detected |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Nov 25 17:38:08 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Nov 25 09:14:33 2020. He'll try and he'll fail unless NJ pays it's fair share. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:44:25 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Nov 25 09:14:33 2020. Biden's DOT won't give it a bad grade like Trump's did, but NJ has yet cough up one dollar. Without that, nothing will happen. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Wed Nov 25 17:45:19 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by DieselBusFan on Wed Nov 25 09:42:43 2020. yeah, East Side was supposed to be 5 years and 3 billion, too.. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:57:00 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by DieselBusFan on Wed Nov 25 09:42:43 2020. Something that would have been forever of no use to Amtrak, or anything that runs through to Sunnyside. |
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Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 26 03:14:07 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by nasadowsk on Wed Nov 25 17:45:19 2020. Yes; should have been the 11th year anniversary of it opening, already . . . |
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| (1562090) | |
Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 26 03:16:53 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by DieselBusFan on Wed Nov 25 09:42:43 2020. which Christie capriciously cancelled"THE Tunnel" being canceled wasn't capricious. The plan itself was capricious. And something would have been much better than nothing Oh yeah? There's still Hoboken, if that's how you feel. And exactly how would you have gotten to NYP platforms through "THE Tunnel" which only was to go to six new platforms underneath NYP and no further? You think NJT would have stood for Amtrak invading their new fancy space? |
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| (1562091) | |
Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 26 03:19:03 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Nov 25 09:14:33 2020. Biden will presumably restart the Gateway project from where it was stopped when Trump took overWhy are you presuming that? And why do you presume it was stopped? There was absolutely zero progress on Gateway under Biden's former boss. Zero. The whole "shovel-ready" "stimulus" spending went towards highways. |
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Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 07:18:06 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 26 03:16:53 2020. Only Amtrak Keystones and Acela are bi-directional and would be physically capable of running to Macys Bunker, but most Acela goes to Boston. |
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Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 07:20:07 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 26 03:19:03 2020. When NJ pulled their money in 2011 or 2012 (I forgot which), there was nothing for Obama to do with it. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by kp5308 on Thu Nov 26 08:58:07 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by andy on Tue Nov 24 22:17:11 2020. With Amtrak Joe ready to assume office, things will hopefully get better.IMO nothing will get done. The tunnels will fail and the finger pointing will begin. Too much evidence is out there that regardless of who the players are in this circus act the issue is not worth spending the political capital. |
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| (1562116) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Thu Nov 26 12:14:41 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by kp5308 on Thu Nov 26 08:58:07 2020. Maybe with the Hudson tunnels failed, everyone would realize it's the chance to get to track level (And below, why isn't there a pair of exit concourses below them?). A rebuild without Amtrak and NJT traffic would make it a lot easier, you just have the LIRR and the occasional Albany and Boston trains to deal with.Granted, it won't happen because nobody can agree on anything... |
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Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Nov 27 14:22:57 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 26 03:16:53 2020. You DON'T use it for Amtrak.You use it for NJT. Amtrak can easily get by with being the sole user of the one remaining tunnel as the other one is rebuilt. |
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| (1562156) | |
Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Nov 27 14:24:06 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:57:00 2020. The point wasn't to be of use to Amtrak. The point was to be of use to NJT.And getting NJT trains out of Penn is of great use to both Amtrak and LIRR. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 15:39:18 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Nov 25 17:38:08 2020. And why would NJ be dumb enough to pay anything?If NJ residents work in NYC, the state of NJ gets zero in income tax from them. If they work in NJ, they get between 6 and 9% of their income in tax revenue. An investment in improved transit to NYC is spending money in order to reduce their own revenue. This may have made sense even 10 years ago, when the need to gather everyone in an office every day was considered critical -- after all making your constituents lives easier wins votes. Now, however, with the opportunities for significant chunks of work to be conducted remotely clearly recognized by both employers and employees, the potential for income tax dollars to stay in NJ is too large to ignore. If there is going to be a new tunnel, it will have to be funded by the Federal Government with possible support from NYS and/or NYC. |
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| (1562165) | |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Nov 27 16:02:23 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 15:39:18 2020. And why would NJ be dumb enough to pay anything?Access to NYC is one of the attractions of living in North Jersey. Only to a certain percentage, but a non-trivial percentage. Otherwise we'd all live in Idaho or Montana. |
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| (1562171) | |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 18:00:18 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by AlM on Fri Nov 27 16:02:23 2020. Access to NYC is one of the attractions of living in North Jersey. Only to a certain percentage, but a non-trivial percentage.That percentage has gotten considerably smaller in the last 10 months. Especially when you think about "access to NYC during peak commuting times" and that the urgency of the new tunnels is to maintain or increase capacity during the (formerly) peak commuting times. |
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| (1562172) | |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Nov 27 18:12:01 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 15:39:18 2020. and/or NYC.NYC does not get any income tax from non-city residents working in NYC. |
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| (1562173) | |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Nov 27 19:03:52 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 18:00:18 2020. That percentage has gotten considerably smaller in the last 10 months.It got considerably smaller in 2002 also, but that didn't last. Of course, it's much easier to work from home now, which changes things to some degree. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Nov 27 19:05:14 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Nov 27 18:12:01 2020. IIRC that was one of Shelly Silver's brilliant ideas. |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 19:18:13 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by AlM on Fri Nov 27 19:03:52 2020. The WFH really changes things. Even the ability to work from multiple smaller offices in the lower-cost suburbs changes things. Manhattan office space will still get used, but very differently in many cases.Meanwhile the tax war between the states is about to heat up. Every state is way short on revenue and super-stretched on spending. Right now, someone who works for a NYC-based company but has been working from home in NJ or CT for 5/6 of the year is not going to want to pay NYS's higher tax rate for 2020. And NJ and CT really don't want them to pay it, as they effectively give a dollar-for-dollar credit on tax paid to NYS. |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 19:24:49 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Nov 27 18:12:01 2020. I think I may not have been clear on the point.NJ has an even smaller incentive to contribute to the construction of the tunnel than when they decided to pull their 8 or 10 years ago. NYC gets a benefit from having a massive influx of daily commuters, with or without income tax from those commuters, and thus does have an incentive to contribute. If it were flush with cash*, it would be in NYC's interest to contribute to the construction of improved tunnels to make inbound commuting more attractive. * - Of course, if elephants had wings... |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 27 19:33:21 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 19:24:49 2020. So NJ residents that still travel to/from NYC pay no taxes to NJ? Ever see the property tax rates . . . ? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 27 19:36:00 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 19:18:13 2020. They've been saying "WFH is a game-changer" for two decades running. Security problems still abound that can only be solved by local servers, COVID or no COVID. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Fri Nov 27 20:04:38 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 27 19:33:21 2020. No, they credit for taxes paid to NY on income they earn working in NY. Dividends, interest, NJ earnings, and stuff like property or school are still due to NJ or its subdivisions. |
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Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 27 20:25:36 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by pragmatist on Fri Nov 27 20:04:38 2020. They can't credit it all. |
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Re: Clock is ticking? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Fri Nov 27 21:15:57 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking?, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 27 20:25:36 2020. You don't pay taxes on the same earned income to 2 different states. But everything else is still on the table....Even pro athletes pay income taxes to the distant state (if they have income tax and no exemption for visiting athletes) on away games..... |
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Posted by Brightonr68 on Fri Nov 27 22:25:27 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 27 19:33:21 2020. Houses on direct rail lines into nyc are higher cost for the same size and house for a house 2 towns over without easy transit into nyc . Nj benefits more for the rail tunnel then nyc . Without the rail tunnel many of the out of state people who move to nyc to work and want quality suburban schools for their children would live in westchester , Long Island or semi suburban areas of Brooklyn queens and the bronx .it’s the easy commute into midtown that allows these towns to prosper . Any town on the midtown direct line, housing prices are higher . |
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Re: Clock is ticking |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 11:35:33 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 15:39:18 2020. The demand is obviously there, regardless of income taxes. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 11:39:27 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Fri Nov 27 15:39:18 2020. Since when do we make such decisions on income taxes ? People from NJ, LI, and CT work in Manhattan because those jobs don't exist where they live. |
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Posted by Charles G on Sat Nov 28 12:34:20 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 11:39:27 2020. My point is that many of those jobs are shifting. Jobs that people thought can only done from a central office hub can now be done from home of a smaller local office.That makes a small but real difference in the take home of the employee, but a massive difference in the income tax revenue for NJ and CT. Remember all those packed rush hour trains headed into the city? NYS got 7% of their gross wages. NJ and CT got zero. If even a third of those people can work from home or from a local satellite office, NJ and CT income tax revenue will skyrocket. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 12:49:25 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Sat Nov 28 12:34:20 2020. Up until Covid, there was no reduction in trans-Hudson rail demand, and the bus congestion is beyond capacity.You are making far too much of state income tax rates and assume all this WFH now is permanent. We determine necessity of a project based on physical demand and economic impact, not a state's marginal income tax rates. People living in NJ pay sales and property taxes, even if that income was earned in Manhattan. Property values are very dependent on rail transit access. In case you have not noticed, the suburban office parks in NJ have been vacating the last few years, Merck in Whitehouse being Exhibit A. They are not being backfilled by Manhattan office jobs. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 28 16:06:42 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Charles G on Sat Nov 28 12:34:20 2020. So these NJ residents spent absolutely no money in their home state and got their domiciles for free as well as rent-free and tax-free? never mind free transportation to/from Manhattan?NJ doesn't need to get a piece of wage taxes to get money from people who live there but don't work there. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Nov 29 01:46:15 2020, in response to Re: Clock is ticking, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 24 23:36:56 2020. Why wouldn't it? By diverting NJT traffic to the new terminal under Herald Square, they would only have to deal with Amtrak trains, which could easily be handled with 1 tunnel. |
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