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| MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? (1560469) | |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by zac on Thu Oct 29 11:55:55 2020, in response to MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 29 08:16:40 2020. When I first rode the Metro it felt like it was stuck in a time warp. The classic look of the stations and the old cars with the flip up handles, the buzzers (sounds like a basketball substitution) and the people all just seemed timeless.When I went back I was shocked to see the new cars on the 1 line, the platform barriers, and the hordes of tourists that took over. And the last time I was there the cars even sounded the same as the NYC cars since they use the same propulsion. But the thing that is still the same is the long walks to transfer. Chatelet-Les Halles makes Times Square look like a two step transfer. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Joe on Thu Oct 29 21:02:45 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by zac on Thu Oct 29 11:55:55 2020. Yes, about the transfers (correspondences) that require hikes. When I visited Montreal, Mexico City, and Madrid, I began to contrast those all-stop 2-track systems with our four-track routes under Manhattan avenues and beyond (Queens Blvd). The four-track system allows easier same-platform transfers. In the other cities, there are no delays caused by merging traffic, as at East 149th and Grand Concourse, so headways are more consistent. But the loss of time encountered at a Correspondence in Paris is a debit. Admittedly, we do have a hike at 53rd and Lex. And Montreal has across-the-platform transfer at Lionel-Groulx. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 29 21:23:20 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Joe on Thu Oct 29 21:02:45 2020. there are no delays caused by merging trafficThat's a question of schedules and the ability to adhere to them. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Fri Oct 30 10:49:29 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 29 21:23:20 2020. Maybe that was the point of the buzzer - give everyone an annoying sense of urgency... |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Oct 30 11:04:29 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 29 21:23:20 2020. I agree in general. Though if service is frequent enough or if logistics are strained, it may not even be possible to create a schedule made of even headways that has only one train in a place at a time unless there are scheduled holds. I think I recall, a long time ago, your assessment that it was physically impossible to run MTA's E, F, R, and V on their lines between Queens Blvd and their Manhattan trunk lines at their top frequencies without having at least one train hold for a minute. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Joe on Fri Oct 30 17:18:36 2020, in response to MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 29 08:16:40 2020. I just watched YouTube showing Ligne 5 stopping at Oberkampf. The buzzer on the MF 01 equipment doesn't seem that annoying, possibly because several tones seem mixed together.--- Oberkampf is the name of a Bavarian Merchant! --- The braking noise approaches the ridiculous screech emitted by #6 Lexington locals when you stand on the opposite platform. For the price tag of our new equipment, the designers should have figured out how to reduce the screech. Recall that the PCC researchers succeeded in the 1930's. --- |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Brightonr68 on Fri Oct 30 21:59:22 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by nasadowsk on Fri Oct 30 10:49:29 2020. The doors seem to open before trains stop in Paris especially on the older equipment with the door handles . Also the train operator begins the door closing process sooner . |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Joe on Fri Oct 30 22:34:02 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Brightonr68 on Fri Oct 30 21:59:22 2020. I have been on the Paris metro only a few times over the years. Yes, I liked the doors beginning to open as the train is coming to a stop. The advantage is a few seconds of time gained at each station. Not at all dangerous, as by the time your body could get through, the train would be stopped. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sat Oct 31 11:10:16 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Joe on Fri Oct 30 22:34:02 2020. "Pre open" has been a feature on elevators for decades. I don't get why folks in the transit industry find it so weird.And it apparently works in Paris, anyway. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 1 07:18:39 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by nasadowsk on Sat Oct 31 11:10:16 2020. I'm not familiar with the technology, but I presume that for the train, once the doors are opened, the train is completely inhibited from speeding up and is fully committed to stopping then and there no matter what. The elevator is easier to deal with because if there is no human element involved, then there is no possibility of error ("oops. . .the elevator missed the floor but the doors opened"). |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Nov 1 07:54:17 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 1 07:18:39 2020. Thank you! |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Nov 1 08:28:29 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 1 07:18:39 2020. I'm not familiar with the technology, but I presume that for the train, once the doors are opened, the train is completely inhibited from speeding up and is fully committed to stopping then and there no matter what.Not on the Spragues. There was a visible hydraulic piston that pushed the doors shut. There was a latch that that locked the doors together. The piston was activated by the conductor pressing a button. The pistons retracted, when the conductor released the button. The conductor would press the button, when the train approached the station. The conductor would then release the button. Passengers wishing to exit/enter would open the latch and move the doors apart. The conductor would hit the buzzer and then press the button to activate the piston. The conductor would release the button, when the train cleared the station. Only the latch would hold the doors shut between stations. I verified this on the Spragues because it was possible to move the doors slightly apart without undoing the latch. There was no interlocking should somebody open the doors, while the train was in motion. The postwar cars used a similar lack of safety interlock. Opening the doors was powered, when the passenger moved the latch. I know there was no safety interlock on the RER. The warning sounded but the doors did not close. The train took off between DeGaulle/Etoile and Auber/Opera with the doors open. It was a scary few minutes. I got into a seat and held on for dear life. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Nov 1 10:59:11 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 1 07:18:39 2020. What I remember from my elevator controls days was that once the car was in the 'door zone', and below a certain speed on the drive, it was committed to stopping no matter what, too. Only at that time would the doors start opening, which would drop the drive contactor out, and then the brake after a slight delay. It made a characteristic pop pop pop pop noise on the control board.Putting a contactor downstream of a drive was typically not done back then, except in safety situations. These days, you'd use the STO contacts to instantly drop the output of the drive, but still have a downstream contactor in this application. STO is also used when there's a disconnect after the drive to prevent the drive from blowing up. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Joe on Sun Nov 1 16:10:15 2020, in response to MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 29 08:16:40 2020. I watched the video below with trains arriving Olympiades platforms. In both directions, it is clear that the train comes to a full stop before the doors open. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 1 16:57:20 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Joe on Sun Nov 1 16:10:15 2020. Yeah it's the older trains with manual handles that have those handles enabled very slightly before the train is completely stopped. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Asgard on Sun Nov 1 19:08:59 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Joe on Fri Oct 30 22:34:02 2020. Over the course of six days in Paris in 2014, I acquired the skill of opening the door and exiting a moving train (relatively) gracefully. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Nov 1 21:03:44 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Nov 1 08:28:29 2020. Thank you for this post.Do you have any more technical information on the Spragues? If not, have you found a site on-line where this information is available? Thanks again! |
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Re: ,,,, End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Nov 2 06:51:24 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Express Rider on Sun Nov 1 21:03:44 2020. re: my earlier post -Do you have any more technical information on the Spragues? MU aspects like braking systems, electrical, coupling, motor control system, etc. Thank you! |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 2 07:38:49 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Express Rider on Sun Nov 1 21:03:44 2020. Sorry, I don't have any technical info regarding the Spragues.This link might be a start: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprague-Thomson I got it by googling paris metro rame sprague I do have my search options to search pages in French. |
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Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Nov 2 13:12:32 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 2 07:38:49 2020. Thank you for the link. I have bookmarked the page and will translate it when I can. There is a wiki article in English for Sprague-Thomson, but the article is much shorter and not as detailed.I have some basic facility with speaking and reading French from high school (mostly) and took a semester or two in college to meet the language requirement - the latter was mostly at about the same content level as in my last year of HS. When I was in Paris, summer 1968, the the Metro's fleet status reminded me of NY's around the time of the R-16s' arrival. Pre-war Sprague cars were on all lines except #1 and #'s 12 & 13, the latter IIRC. I don't know when the original rolling stock that pre-dated the Spragues was retired. |
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Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Nov 2 17:20:56 2020, in response to Re: MP14; End of the Paris Door Buzzer sound?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 2 07:38:49 2020. I have used the basic Google Translate application, for the article below from French Wikipedia. The translation was originally literally rough in spots, so I edited sentences to make it read easier. Additions, suggestions are welcomed.Sprague-Thomson is the colloquial term applied to the first all-metal trainsets of the Paris metro. They derive this name from their electrical equipment, a synthesis of those developed by the two manufacturers Sprague and Thomson. This type of extremely reliable and robust material remained in service for 75 years, from 1908 to 1983. Between 1910 and 1930, it was used on the two competing networks of the Paris metro, that of the CMP and that of the North-South. The cars were received over a twenty-eight period, from 1908 to 1936. The improvements made to later deliveries of cars were as much as possible applied to the older rolling stock, resulting in a relatively homogeneous fleet, with operational compatibility between different classes, or series which allowed great flexibility of use to assemble heterogeneous trainsets. Long after the fleet's withdrawal from online service, the sturdiness and stability of the Sprague-Thomson equipment enabled many of these cars to be transformed into work motors, that were used throughout the system until 2011. Several complete trainsets or single cars are preserved by the RATP or [railfan] associations. A complete train set (two motor vehicles and three trailers) as well as a single motor drive are classified as historical monuments Designing an all steel car. When it opened in 1900, the Paris metro was operated using M1 series wooden box trains. These, were a fairly rudimentary design, had many faults including low power and poor insulation of electrical equipment. The latter lead to the tragedy: on August 10, 1903, when a train caught fire on line 2 costing the life for 83 people at Couronnes and Ménilmontant stations. The Compagnie du chemin de fer métropolitain de Paris (CMP) then received orders from the authorities to use all-metal trains. Initially, the M1 trainsets were renovated or rebuilt in metal pending the development of new material. After the Couronnes disaster, the Compagnie du chemin de fer métropolitain de Paris (CMP) sought to develop reliable and safe rolling stock, particularly in the field of electrical equipment. The Company carried out a series of experiments with three different systems: the Westinghouse electro-pneumatic equipment was not used. The multiple unit, electromagic Thomson equipment, was finally adopted, but it is complex; the simpler “Sprague” from America was not convincing. Two motor rolling Sprague-Thomson stock appeared in March 1908, born from the synthesis of two of the previous systems and the use of the multiple unit operation invented by the American industrialist Frank J. Sprague. From 1907, the CMP had new trains built with the Sprague-Thomson system. The first of these trainsets consisted of three motor cars of the 500 series, which we will colloquially call “Sprague”. These cars were 13.35 m long and weighed 27.5 t, and were on either side of a second class trailer and a first class trailer. These motor coaches had an entirely metallic body, and were each equipped with two 175 hp engines, one per bogie, which earned them the designation of M2 motor coaches. Their electrical equipment was fully installed in the driver's cabin, which was 2.50 m long, which gave them their nickname of “large cabin motors”. They have, behind the driver's cabin, a bay compartment fitted with screens but without windows, intended to accommodate standing travelers who smoke; as these are not ultimately authorized in the metro, this compartment will be used to increase the capacity of the car during peak hours. They also include, a provision retained on all Sprague-Thomson equipment, a small door in the middle of the front faces, intended to facilitate service intercirculation. From 1909, the second Sprague-Thomson trainsets appeared, comprising the 600 series power cars. The green (originally olive green) in second class and red in first class livery, which marked several generations of Parisians, were introduced at the place of the previous brown livery. In 1913, the CMP put the 700 power train series into service. The installation of bogies with secondary suspension by dancer cross members, inspired by the North-South equipment released three years earlier, offers better comfort. The postponement (?) of part of the electrical equipment under the frame mades it possible to shorten the driving compartment to 1.90 m, leaving more space for travelers. The replacement of the painted sheet by the vitrified sheet in the coating of the cars offers a more beautiful esthetics. After the First World War, in 1923, improved motor coaches arrived, the 800 series motor coaches. All the electrical equipment was now installed under the chassis, which made it possible to further reduce the driving compartment, hence their nickname of "small cab motors", and to increase the space of the travelers. In the 1960s, some full cab motor coaches were cut in the middle and then joined together in pairs to form two-box motors; These were first painted in gray, then later in yellow. The arrival of the TMA (autonomous walking tractor) in the 1980s made it possible to reform several of these power units, a reform which was accentuated with the arrival in the 2000s of the TME (electric walking tractor). The use of the last Sprague tractors ceased on March 8, 2011 for safety reasons; the RATP decided on May 5, 2011 to reform all the remaining tractors. The T.74 and T.91 are kept by the ADEMAS association while the T.95 is kept by the RATP. North-South Motors The Société du Nord-Sud, a competitor of the CMP, had the Société franco-belge and Thomson build, from 1910 to 1925, different Sprague-Thomson trainsets, made up of two motor coaches (instead of three for the metro), Usually three trailers: two second class trailers and one middle first class trailer. The motor cars, 13.60 m long and weighing 35.5 t, are equipped with four 125 hp engines, two per bogie (against only two, admittedly more powerful, for those of the metro). The cars have two-tone liveries: turquoise blue and pearl gray in second class (instead of the olive green livery for those of the CMP), red and straw yellow in first class. Comfort is improved by the adoption of cross-beam suspensions, the aesthetics of the cars are more beautiful, the lighting is better arranged than in the metro. But the originality of the North-South equipment is its power supply by pantograph and catenary at + 600 V for one of the trainsets of the train set, and by slider and third rail at - 600 V for the other. When the North-South network was integrated into that of the CMP in 1930, the catenary was removed and the collection equipment of the North-South motor coaches aligned with those of the other CMP equipment. Despite everything, the slightly larger size of the North-South and its specific electrical equipment confined the equipment to lines 12 and 13 of the metro network and prohibited its operation in multiple units with the CMP power units. Over the deliveries and throughout the construction period of Sprague-Thomson equipment, several French or Belgian companies shared the markets: Ateliers de la Buire, Ateliers de construction du Nord de la France, Baume & Marpent, Brissonneau and Lotz , the French Railway Equipment Company, the General Company for Construction and Maintenance of Railway Equipment, Dessouches David, the Decauville establishments, the Franco-Belgian Company, the Lorraine Company of the former Dietrich establishments. FINAL Years In 1956, the renovation of line 11 for the circulation of rubber tired cars led a batch of Sprague to reform(?). These trains were particularly criticized for very spartan comfort with, among other things, unpadded wooden benches. They were largely transformed into construction equipment. Rubber tired stock began operation on line 1 in 1963 and for line 4 in 1967. The appearance of the MF 67 iron material in 1968 on line 3 accelerated the retiring of the Sprague fleet. Next, line 7 was equipped with MF 67 cars. Sprague cars were then dispersed over many lines. In 1975, lines 2, 3 bis, 5, 7 bis, 12 were fully operated by Sprague and lines 8, 9, 10 partially. The last two motor motor stock disappeared in 1976 from line 2. The last movements of the original North-South cars took place in 1972 on line 12. In addition to their obsolescence, their electrical equipment did not support the increase in voltage (from 600 to 750 V) upgraded to the network in 1969. The arrival of the MF 77 in 1978 on line 13 accelerated the retiring of the Sprague, which then operated only on line 9. In 1982, these cars were goint to be retired from service but the flooding of the Église de Pantin station suddenly damaged and made many MF 67s inoperable. To maintain service on line 5, equipment was taken from line 9, which gave the Spragues an unexpected reprieve. It was finally on April 16, 1983 that the last four Sprague trainsets on line 9 ceased service. On the occasion of the last service, a large crowd were on hand for its arrival at Porte de Saint-Cloud station. The Sprague-Thomson equipment therefore has operated 75 years on the metro lines, although the oldest series were withdrawn first. It would seem, however, that certain moter cars from 1908-1910 circulated in commercial service until 1974,which was a service of about 65 years, the absolute record of longevity for a Parisian equipment. Since May 11, 2010, the RATP has issued a ban on the movement of Sprague equipment during passenger service. This ban does not apply to the A.475 train set, which has been specially modified, which allows it to circulate, for example. within the framework of the European Heritage Days. RATP has kept three Sprague trainsets, but only one is currently usable with passengers. It circulates from time to time for line events, for example during European Heritage Days, and for associations of enthusiasts (ADEMAS, COPEF). This train can sometimes be used for filming films as was the case for Les Femmes deombre. Many cars are stored in museums, including the museum of urban, interurban and rural transport (AMTUIR), opened to the public in 1964 at the Malakoff depot, then in 1973 in Saint-Mandé, in 1999 in Colombes. Five cars (two 2nd class with their motor unit, and one 1st class with only the trailer) constituting the A.475 train set are “classified” in the inventory of historical monuments under the title object since December 18, 1998. Another car , a 2nd class railcar which was kept at the Vaugirard depot, was “classified” on February 17, 2000. Other reformed trainsets were used to ensure the work trains of the Paris metro (power units converted into Sprague motors or trailers then converted into special cars, but their activity ceased definitively on March 8, 2011. Two trainsets made up of Sprague tractors and first and second class cars have been preserved by ADEMAS. They are sometimes used during the Steam Festival at Noyelles-sur-Mer, on the Chemin de fer de la Baie de Somme network. One of the motors carries a generator set on its platform, allowing the train to circulate autonomously. |
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Re: Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 2 18:25:46 2020, in response to Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post, posted by Express Rider on Mon Nov 2 17:20:56 2020. Really gives meaning to the old saying "They don't build them like they used to" . . . |
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Re: Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 2 18:54:32 2020, in response to Re: Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 2 18:25:46 2020. You did not ride them towards the end of their life. |
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| (1560844) | |
Re: Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Nov 3 02:17:43 2020, in response to Re: Sprague-Thomson. Wiki article translation. Long post, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 2 18:54:32 2020. I rode them during the summer of 1968. What were the riding qualities and physical condition if you rode them, towards the end of their service?Thank you in advance for any info.! - Express Rider |
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