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| Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! (1551974) | |
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| (1553142) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by sloth on Wed Jul 15 09:35:58 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by randyo on Wed Jul 15 01:32:46 2020. I'm not referring to the existence of blueprints. There were no publications issued to employees? Putting A7 and A8 in service, for X number of feet, holding X number of cars, and then later taking them out of service? No maps of Pitkin yard depicting them in service? |
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| (1553147) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jul 15 10:03:13 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by HANDBRAKE on Tue Jul 14 15:07:33 2020. Thank you. This clarifies a lot....! |
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| (1553148) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jul 15 10:05:52 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Jul 6 08:57:03 2020. I'm quite late here- but Happy Birthday!!!And you're 76- the irony... |
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| (1553160) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 15 14:08:02 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Tue Jul 14 18:38:30 2020. Agreed! I just wonder if there was a provision in the IRT's purchase of the Putnam Bridge, in 1918, to provide 6th & 9th Ave el service for Putnam riders. |
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| (1553164) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jul 15 15:34:19 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by sloth on Wed Jul 15 09:35:58 2020. In all likelihood when Pitkin Yd first opened, all the tracks that were in service at the time were on the model board and the tower personnel received appropriate instructions at the time as to what tracks were in service. No doubt when the tracks were taken out of service there was probably a bulletin issued indicating their removal but since as I mentioned, it was before 1962, any paperwork is long gone. |
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| (1553166) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jul 15 15:44:15 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 15 14:08:02 2020. AFAIK, the NYCRR retained ownership of the bridge and merely leased it to the IRT for $1.00 a year. |
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| (1553173) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 15 16:36:41 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Wed Jul 15 15:44:15 2020. I read that it had been purchased from the NYCRR for $17 or $18 million in 1918. After the purchase, the Highbridge station was rebuilt and the bridge approach tracks were severed. |
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| (1553174) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 15 16:44:18 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by randyo on Wed Jul 15 01:38:01 2020. Had 76th St station been completed, would it have been on the same level as Euclid? |
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| (1553187) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Jul 15 21:42:20 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 15 16:44:18 2020. The topography goes downhill along Pitkin to the east (especially between Eldert and Forbell) so 76 St would be about 10 feet lower than Euclid. |
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| (1553193) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 00:11:32 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by VictorM on Wed Jul 15 21:42:20 2020. While A5 and A6 Yd leads S/O Euclid pass under the mainline to get to Pitkin Yd, A7 and A8 going towards 76 St would pass over the mainline going to from the yard. The Pitkin Ave infrastructure in the area is a bit of roller coaster ride. It rises above A5 and A6 to a point where K1 and K2 wye away from the mainline and right after that A1 through A4 drop down under the K1 and K2 tunnels to Grant and remain at that level and K5 and K6 yard leads that go towards Liberty Av also pass over the mainline and it’s from K5 and K6 that A7 and A8 diverge enroute to 76 St. |
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| (1553201) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 03:21:58 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by HANDBRAKE on Tue Jul 14 15:07:33 2020. So if I understand correctly, the A7/A8 leads were connected to K5/K6 once the Liberty Av connection became the only connection south of Euclid? If so, the original plan which had both the Pitkin mainline and Liberty Av branch likely didn't have a connection from Liberty Av to the yard (or it was less intricate).I've sketched out my best understanding of the area. My guesses at the yard leads are based on OpenStreetMap. From this post showing an A2-411 signal, and knowing that the south end of Euclid is at 427+55 (from that old list of IND chaining locations for each station), I estimate that the bumper blocks are around 1600 feet past end of the platform, which is between Grant Av and Eldert Ln. The vent and emergency exit you mentioned along the Pitkin Av mainline are easily visible. There are a couple of vent grates I can't quite place, though, which I marked with question marks. I think the eastern one is a grate for the Liberty yard connector, but I have no idea what the western one is, unless it's part of the extra-wide Pitkin mainline tunnel. The thing that bothers me is that if the track alignments shown on OpenStreetMap are correct, there's no way the A7/A8 leads could have possibly reached Pitkin. The angle would have been far too sharp. I think there are two possibilities: 1) The point where the A7/A8 changes to K5/K6 is the northern limit of the original 1940ish construction of the yard leads, and they were never connected to anything until the Liberty connector was built. 2) A7/A8 originally made a more gentle curve to the east. There may be remnants of these tunnels east of the point where K5/K6 connect. I can't speculate on how far they might go. The mainline tunnel retained the spacing between local and express tracks for them to eventually join in a mirror image of A5/A6, though possibly from above instead of below. I also think "were the yard leads ever extended to the mainline?" and "how far does the mainline tunnel go?" are two separate questions. The key would be finding the construction contracts indicating the route and section. From what I understand much of the IND construction was split up into small chunks for different structural features. I marked a possible location of such a boundary on the map - it would be as far east as a hypothetical point where the A7/A8 tunnel, with a more gentle curve, might meet the mainline tunnel, but not the actual mainline flyover. |
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| (1553209) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Jul 16 08:51:27 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 03:21:58 2020. Thanks for this analysis. I'm certain possibility 2 is the correct assumption: A7/A8 branched off from the yard leads at Belmont Av. However, buildings on the south side of Pitkin Av between Grant Av and Forbell St were built in the 1920s and the NYC Digital Tax Map does not show any easement allowing A7/A8 to pass under them, so A7/A8 were never built beyond North or South Conduit Blvd. They were definitely intended to merge with "Main" tracks A1 to A4 from above near Drew St, but I doubt if the A1/A4 tunnel was built that far east. |
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| (1553235) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 14:46:25 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 03:21:58 2020.  |
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| (1553237) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 16 15:10:24 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 14:46:25 2020. Wait till Tunnelrar sees this one!!! |
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| (1553240) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 16:20:21 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 14:46:25 2020. Wow. It's incredible for a document dated 1944 to reflect exactly what was built and opened in 1956 (for the Liberty Av connection anyway), given the number of revisions to IND plans that happened in that time frame. Where did you find that diagram?I hadn't considered the possibility that K5/K6 were a branch of A7/A8. So there may be some further tunnels heading towards the mainline. It's also likely that the chaining changes right at the point of that planned diverging switch. I suspect the K5/K6 connector was built with the mainline tunnel, which may also explain how A7/A8 were used as yard layup tracks - it's possible that they may have gone as far as the north side of Pitkin Av. |
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| (1553241) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 16:29:34 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by VictorM on Thu Jul 16 08:51:27 2020. As I mentioned in reply to Union Tpke's post, I suspect the K5/K6 connectors were built as far as the north side of Pitkin Av, with the mainline tunnel construction circa 1940. There may well be some continuing of A7/A8 to the east as well, but how far is very unclear. Your theory that they don't go further than Conduit Blvd is plausible.I still think we don't know how far the mainline construction actually went. Perhaps the city waited to get the easements for the yard leads until they were actually necessary, but the cut and cover construction under Pitkin Av is entirely in the city's purview and likely could have been done without any trace remaining in the tax records. |
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| (1553242) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 16:32:39 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 14:46:25 2020. It also occurs that the eastern vent grate I marked may in fact be located on top of A7/A8 after all, depending on how far those tunnels went. |
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| (1553243) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 16:47:15 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 16:20:21 2020. I found it somewhere four years ago. I cannot recall where unfortunately. It was one someone's Photobucket originally. I am glad I saved it before Photobucket slapped their watermark over every image. I have seen some photos of the yard leads that would have headed to 76th Street, but would need to ask permission if I could share them. |
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| (1553244) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Jul 16 16:50:21 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 16 15:10:24 2020. Wait till TunnelraT sees this one!!! He is probably still celebrating his 76th birthday. This is the third time or so that he has turned 76. I suppose if he ever turns 77 we will have to move the station. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1553245) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 16:51:01 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Jul 16 16:50:21 2020. Depending on where the platforms end, we could just rename it 77th Street. |
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| (1553257) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 23:34:04 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 16 15:10:24 2020. He’s seen it and also sent me larger copies of it. That map is pretty accurate to the way I remember it from the times I was there. |
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| (1553258) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 23:36:24 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 16 16:32:39 2020. When I first heard about it in 1959, the humps of earth in the Conduit medial were almost up to the westbound lane of Conduit. |
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| (1553259) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 23:46:39 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by VictorM on Thu Jul 16 08:51:27 2020. It could be possible that the route of A7 and A8 towards Pitkin might have been routed under undeveloped property and swung over to Pitkin a bit east at around Ruby St. |
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| (1553260) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 17 02:36:12 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 23:36:24 2020. The 1951 aerial is....to be honest, extremely blurry. It's hard to make out anything and I can't conclude if such mounds are present in the photos. If you reeeaaaalllly squint and switch back and forth with a later aerial it sort of looks like the eastern grate is already present. Same with the 1954 map on historicaerials.com (which I can't link here).Judging by the 1959 date, that sort of sounds like fill on top of cut-and-cover tunnels for K5/K6. We can't rule out that they might have been A7/A8 either. As a side note, if you check a modern aerial or street view, there's a freestanding manhole in the median near that grate. It could be a sewer or utility tunnel, but I wonder if it might be connected to subway infrastructure. |
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| (1553261) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 17 06:24:59 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 23:34:04 2020. I would love to see a larger copy of it if that were possible. |
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| (1553267) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 17 10:14:56 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 15 16:36:41 2020. the NYCRR LEASED TH BRIDGE TO THE CITY FOR $17000 A YEAR UNTIL END OF SERVICE. |
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| (1553300) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 17 14:52:08 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 17 10:14:56 2020. According to the New York Central System Historical Society, the Putnam swingbridge was purchased by the IRT. Go to nycshs.org, click on the Putnam Division section, and read it for yourself. |
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| (1553301) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 17 14:56:10 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Jul 16 16:50:21 2020. Steve Elderts is a nice sounding name! |
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| (1553311) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jul 17 18:03:46 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 17 02:36:12 2020. According the a very knowledgeable person, those mounds were definitely A7 and A8. It may or may not have been a temporary fill in anticipation of further work being done at a later date. At the time I saw them in 1959, they had been around so long they had grass growing on them. |
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| (1553312) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jul 17 18:04:35 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 17 06:24:59 2020. They were sent on line so they are out there in cyberspace somewhere. |
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| (1572761) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 5 20:43:35 2021, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 16 16:51:01 2020. Well, according the plans as they were prior to WWII, as well as a Hagstrom map from circa 1940, the station in question was supposed to be named 75 St not 76 St. |
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