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| (1552296) | |
Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020 https://nypost.com/2020/07/04/why-new-york-city-will-never-build-another-subway-station/What else is new. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 5 12:50:54 2020, in response to Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020. Probably true. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Jul 5 14:33:17 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 5 12:50:54 2020. Linked |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jul 5 14:34:35 2020, in response to Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020. The article is accurate.We’re lucky we got what we have. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 5 14:38:25 2020, in response to Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020. Meanwhile China keeps on building HSR. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 5 14:58:25 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 5 14:38:25 2020. authoritarian state sometimes more able to enforce policies. be glad you are not a Uighur. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020, in response to Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020. Stupid article. Never is a long time. Many people - some on this board - said the current Second Ave. subway section would never be built. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 15:38:22 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020. Exactly. And look at the source.NY Post loves anti NYCT content. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 5 16:29:35 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Jul 5 14:33:17 2020. Thanks Chuck. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by zac on Sun Jul 5 17:25:02 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 5 14:38:25 2020. But yet the Shanghai Maglev was never extended even though the government wanted to do it. There was local opposition. Besides, if you think NYC is crowded, go to Shanghai sometime. When I returned home NYC looked small by comparison. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Jul 6 03:52:36 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020. Excellent post! |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 05:14:11 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020. I agree with the article both as a matter of historical fact and as a matter of current economics.Substantial subway expansion (all new mileage, as opposed to reopening existing closed stations or lines) is so expensive now in this city that it takes a confluence of unusual circumstances to make it happen. In short, there needs to be a lot of money available and the political will to spend that money on expanding the system. History has demonstrated that available money usually goes to system upkeep rather than expansion. At least two bond issues I can think of that were specifically intended for the SAS were diverted from construction to maintenance. But now there’s even more reason to doubt extension - COVID-19 and the sharp rise in working remotely. The raison d’etre for the subways (and earlier, the els) was to spread out the city’s population to the four boroughs within reach of the system. They were intended to spur growth in the outer boroughs and to get people out of overcrowded lower Manhattan and the Lower East Side. They created the identity of the commuter - someone who lived at Point A and worked in Manhattan and traveled by subway to get there.The subways and els were spectacularly successful in this regard. However, with the rise of the Internet came the advent of commuting remotely - ie, being able to work and see other people without leaving your house. As what happens during any public crisis, this technology took sharp leaps forward in the COVID-19 era. Many people (including me) are working remotely from home and are able to attend meetings and meet clients using technology such as Zoom and WebEx. This has accelerated a phenomenon in commercial real estate - companies are thinking long and hard about abandoning the traditional “office” environment and simply having people work from home. Doing this would save businesses a ton of money in rent costs and people could theoretically be more productive if their workplaces were in their own homes. No more physical exhaustion or delays due to commuting. My own employer, a large insurance company, has already strongly hinted that the leases on their two office locations will not be renewed in the spring of 2021. And this trend is only going to increase as remote technology improves. This is bad news for the city, which needs commercial real estate taxes from landlords, and the subways. Fewer people commuting to work equals reduced revenue for the MTA. While there will obviously always be a need for mass transit in NYC, there may very well come a point soon that the demand for new lines will no longer be there. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 6 05:32:47 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 05:14:11 2020. I agree:Before the Pandemic, with the new buildings coming online I thought we would eventually need a full SAS AND a rebuilt Third Avenue EL to handle such. Now, what was even thought in February of THIS YEAR (2020) may not even happen for at least a decade if not longer. That's how much the Pandemic has changed things. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 07:37:19 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 6 05:32:47 2020. We’ll never see another new elevated subway line under any circumstances, unless it’s a monorail or something like that. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by zac on Mon Jul 6 08:26:06 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 07:37:19 2020. not even something like that. Nobody wants an elevated structure no matter what it is. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Jul 6 09:08:56 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020. Many people - some on this board - said the current Second Ave. subway section would never be built. You're right about that. Many of us were dubious that it would ever be built. Now maybe one day the Titanic will finally dock at Pier 54. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 6 10:24:58 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020. HEY! He's selling a BOOK, not a subway tunnel! |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 6 10:33:37 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 6 05:32:47 2020. You might not see another elevated in the CBD (Including the Brooklyn and Queens CBDs, but further out, the possibility remains viable.It is easier for a TBM to work nuder the streets of a dense city, but not so much under the muck of outer Queens and parts of Brooklyn. The land we are talking about used to be IN THE HUDSON RIVER before the last ice age. It is soft silty soil, and it may prove to be a better option to build New Technology Elevated Structures. Picture if you will, graceful arching concrete and/or steel viaducts that are both quiet and do not block the light so much. Everybody will vote against newly build `19th century structures, but let them choose between a modern structure and no service, the outcome may be in favor of the train. The LIRR does not provoke the same animus as an elevated but it is still an elevated rapid transit line. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Jul 6 11:07:18 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jul 5 15:07:57 2020. All it took was a couple anti-semitic murals for them to build it. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:36:50 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 15:38:22 2020. Not to mention anti-urban content. They're like the official newspaper of people who think like SubChatter Mononymous Dan. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:21 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 05:14:11 2020. I agree with the article both as a matter of historical fact and as a matter of current economics.Current economics are not a useful predictor of the future. Substantial subway expansion (all new mileage, as opposed to reopening existing closed stations or lines) is so expensive now in this city that it takes a confluence of unusual circumstances to make it happen. You can't predict that this will permanently remain the case. People probably didn't predict the shift in costs between capital and labor. But now there’s even more reason to doubt extension - COVID-19 and the sharp rise in working remotely. People have been predicting the rise of telecommuting for decades and until 2020 it didn't happen. I would argue that it's only the upper classes that have really taken to working remotely, everyone else either continued to work or just lost their job. As those jobs come back those commuters will come back. Meanwhile, flaws in telecommuting will lead to people returning to offices. If telecommuting were preferable in the absence of a deadly pandemic, it would have been adopted already. The only thing that will kill commuting is the complete elimination of those jobs, either by automation, or outsourcing. Not really the same, but after 9/11 people predicted that no one would work in tall buildings again, Battery Park City was depopulated and people predicted that no one would want to rent at the new WTC. None of those predictions came to pass. Doing this would save businesses a ton of money in rent costs and people could theoretically be more productive if their workplaces were in their own homes Numerous studies have found that people are less productive in their own homes, except where they end up working longer hours due to the absence of the clean break where they have to leave work to get home. One thing that you haven't considered is that due to the quarantine, many people have considered the value of having larger homes with private yards and driveways. This might make the upper SAS less useful, but it might make subways to outlying areas more useful. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:38 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 6 05:32:47 2020. LOL! |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 12:05:20 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:21 2020. IAWTP. The office is not dead, that's for sure.And those telecommuting plumbers just haven't worked out as planned. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:09 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 05:14:11 2020. Substantial subway expansion (all new mileage, as opposed to reopening existing closed stations or lines) is so expensive now in this cityNot because building subways is as expensive as they claim, but all of the corruption driving up the costs. Never mind the notion of the city itself building it versus the private sector. |
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Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:31 2020, in response to Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020. Socialism always fails. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:20:25 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 6 05:32:47 2020. AND a rebuilt Third Avenue ELLOL! |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 13:34:27 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:09 2020. The private sector never built subways in New York. |
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Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 14:08:32 2020, in response to Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:31 2020. Yes the socialist subway has been running over a century. |
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Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 14:10:35 2020, in response to Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 14:08:32 2020. Olog-hai fails reality. |
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Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 14:36:28 2020, in response to Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 14:10:35 2020. It's like the myriad or "private" bus outfits in NJ, with all sorts of state and NJT contracts with a head-spinning complexity of operating subsidy arrangements, or not. BUT most of them get free bus purchases. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 15:31:06 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by zac on Mon Jul 6 08:26:06 2020. Well, if built the right way and if it’s really advanced, it could be touted as a tourist attraction. But an ordinary el? No chance whatsoever. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jul 6 17:09:20 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:21 2020. Great post. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 17:42:34 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jul 5 14:34:35 2020. Only if you keep voting for the type of politicians who make things that way. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 19:24:47 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 05:14:11 2020. I had always thought that working from home would never catch on because of opposition from both managers (who find it hard to micromanage and browbeat workers not physically in their presence) and employees (who fear they won't be considered absolutely vital if not physically in the office every day). Now that mandatory working from home requirements have ended in most places, it remains to be seen if it will be a permanent thing or if workers will return to offices. I suspect that most workers will be back in offices before long. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 19:31:33 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:21 2020. While I'm generally skeptical of working from home as a permanent thing, earlier this afternoon I was driving on the Long Island Expressway past the Canon cameras headquarters building in Melville and the parking lots were empty. Almost everyone there must be working at home, even though offices in Suffolk County have been allowed to be open for almost a month now. Whether the Canon people will return to the office remains to be seen. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 19:42:24 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 19:31:33 2020. It is one thing to determine what has to be done to an office. It will take them all summer to actually redesign it.S.H.I. HQs are in Somerset, about 3,000 people. Their lot is still empty (nobody takes a bus there). They are not allowed back to work until September, and must be individually cleared to do it. They were never good about tele-commuting before. Even then, 50% will come to work Mon and Wed, 50% will come to work Tues & Thus, and each group alternate Friday. Ditto for Rutgers staff in September in Newark, New Brundwick, and Camden. My Merrill Lynch wealth management staff has about 400 people in the Metlife(PanAm) building. Even in September, building management does not know what to do. For a 55 story building, for social distancing, it will take 5 hours to fill the building in the AM and 5 hours to evacuate in the PM. How does that work with rush hours and normal workdays, or there is a fire drill, or fire alarm ? It doesn't. Most will have to tele-commute until there is a vax, then put up with the shitheads who refuse to get one. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 19:44:04 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 19:31:33 2020. My office is only reopening next Monday, with a limit of 10% occupancy.This will allow the people who have the really difficult at-home situations to use the office. I'm staying home for now, but I can see that I'd be more efficient at the office. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 19:55:19 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 19:24:47 2020. Companies will see they are still in business with all that vacant office space, and wonder why they are paying all that rent. This worked out just fine. This is above the pay-grade of control freak project managers. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 20:03:59 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 19:42:24 2020. Interesting point about elevators and social distancing. I don't see how that would work out. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 20:10:31 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jul 6 20:03:59 2020. It probably doesn't. My building's elevators have a capacity of about 12-14, and the rule will be no more than 4 people at a time.Maybe by September they will have good information that 12 people with well-fitting N-95 masks together in an elevator for 90 seconds is not a big risk. More likely, they won't. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 6 21:03:49 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:20:25 2020. IAWLOL (though I'd like to see a full-length SAS) |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 6 21:05:55 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 19:55:19 2020. I think you got it right, though Peter accurately described the major roadblocks which delayed the change. Now what we need is a "crash program" to convertthe no longer needed offices into housing--some merely cheap, some semi carceral for the non compis homeless. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 6 21:07:26 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Jul 6 09:08:56 2020. It already did! 😂Only 79 years late! (Ghostbusters 2 came out in 1991) |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 6 21:08:17 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 6 21:07:26 2020. Oops, YouTube assholes prevented embedding 😡 |
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Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by xtimx on Mon Jul 6 21:23:26 2020, in response to Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:31 2020. Turn off Fox News and stop regurgitating talking points that make no sense and that you don't understand at all. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 22:28:09 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:21 2020. I never said that the subways were dead. I am saying that advances in telecommuting will reduce ridership to the point where the crushing demand for new lines will no longer exist.It doesn't matter anyway. The MTA is deeply in the red. We're lucky to have gotten the Stubway. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 22:29:54 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 13:34:27 2020. The original IRT was built with city money by a private corporation, which then had the right to operate the line and collect the fares, with a portion of the profits going to the city. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 22:30:29 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:09 2020. Regardless of the reason, it is prohibitively expensive to build subways in Manhattan. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 22:31:58 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 6 19:55:19 2020. That is exactly what is happening with my employer. The office return date went from August 5 to December 31 to (probably) never. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 00:19:26 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 22:29:54 2020. Yes. A public private partnership. Olog-hai thinks that’s Marxist. |
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