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Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jun 29 16:58:08 2020

A photo on Facebook shows some of the spur's steelwork still around in 1938, eight years after the spur closed. When was it completely demolished?

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(1551816)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by andy on Mon Jun 29 18:37:22 2020, in response to Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jun 29 16:58:08 2020.

The steelwork at Third Ave. and 34th remained till the end of the el in 1955. Was needed to support the structure.

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(1551825)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 29 22:47:49 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by andy on Mon Jun 29 18:37:22 2020.

Similar to the way the bent (or bents?) south of Myrtle-Broadway on the J have been left in place?

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(1551826)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 29 22:49:10 2020, in response to Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jun 29 16:58:08 2020.

which Facebook page please?
Maybe, heh, this and other transit history-operations pages on Facebook will finally get me to join.

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(1551833)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 30 00:55:28 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 29 22:47:49 2020.

Not necessarily. In certain places like Ditmas on the F and 80/Hudson St on the A need a small piece of the original structure for support but that wouldnít be then case with Bway/Myrtle.

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(1551843)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by VictorM on Tue Jun 30 03:41:34 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 30 00:55:28 2020.

The upper level at Broadway Myrtle is far above the street. They may have left the el in place as far south as Lewis Av to provide structural stability at B'way Myrtle.

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(1551844)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 30 04:06:43 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by VictorM on Tue Jun 30 03:41:34 2020.

Interesting idea about structure stability.

I wonder if they ever thought about using Myrtle upper as a storage track?

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(1551845)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by VictorM on Tue Jun 30 04:44:22 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 30 04:06:43 2020.

There is a long utility building on the upper level platform.

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(1551846)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by murray1575 on Tue Jun 30 05:10:03 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 30 04:06:43 2020.

If a train were stored there for any length of time I guarantee that it would be tagged by graffiti vandals. This is not a good idea.

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(1551848)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 30 05:56:10 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by murray1575 on Tue Jun 30 05:10:03 2020.

True. And cost of maintaining is high.



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(1551849)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by subfan on Tue Jun 30 07:11:26 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 30 04:06:43 2020.

They could have also used it to terminate M shuttles when they're not running through - that way, they'd not need to cross at grade. Not sure if the upper platform could be cut back enough for that, though - the structure of the lower Myrtle couldn't.

subfan

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(1551851)

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[PHOTO] Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Tue Jun 30 08:14:19 2020, in response to Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jun 29 16:58:08 2020.

View West from 3rd Ave el
image host

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(1551857)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Express Rider on Tue Jun 30 09:26:54 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 30 00:55:28 2020.

Thanks. However that's the reason what I'd heard from someone, though if this is not the case with B'way-Myrtle, than they must have been mistaken.

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(1551874)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Jun 30 13:25:00 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 29 22:49:10 2020.

The Old Images of New York group. Only a fairly small percentage of the group's materials are transit-related.

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(1551884)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 30 17:14:23 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by subfan on Tue Jun 30 07:11:26 2020.

I donít think the same problem exists at Bway/Myrt upper as at the other stations on the el.Why the upper level wasnít kept as a stub terminal similar the Fkln I donít know. At the present time the upper level is being used for signal facilities so at least that part of it will be kept for a while although I donít see a need for the rest of it.

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(1551906)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by VictorM on Tue Jun 30 20:14:59 2020, in response to [PHOTO] Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by Bill Newkirk on Tue Jun 30 08:14:19 2020.

Isn't that view looking east from 3rd Av? Thanks for the photo.

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(1551915)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by subfan on Wed Jul 1 06:29:59 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 30 17:14:23 2020.

Having the upper level available as a terminal would have been very useful when they were rebuilding the viaduct connection from the upper Myrtle to the Broadway line. They could have just sent the M shuttle to upper level to terminate, with a direct connection downstairs to continue on into Manhattan. No need fo any buses to shuttle between them...

As to why a portion of the lower Myrtle structure was left up south of Broadway - I recall that there was a power substation about a block south, and the structure was needed to hold a power cable for the Broadway line.

subfan

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(1551916)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jul 1 06:32:31 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by VictorM on Tue Jun 30 20:14:59 2020.

Isn't that view looking east from 3rd Av? Thanks for the photo.

Yes, you are correct.

Bill Newkirk

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(1551925)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jul 1 09:49:56 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 30 17:14:23 2020.

I have also long wondered why Myrtle Upper was never used as a shuttle terminal...

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(1551928)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Jul 1 10:35:47 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jul 1 09:49:56 2020.



I have also long wondered why Myrtle Upper was never used as a shuttle terminal...

The upper level was not strong enough to support steel subway cars. It was built only to accommodate the wooden el cars of the period.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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(1551939)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 1 12:36:45 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Jul 1 10:35:47 2020.

Why would you make people climb the stairs to the upper level? The center (express) track allows across-the-platform transfers for shuttle trains to/from B'way-Myrtle.

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(1551948)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by randyo on Wed Jul 1 14:48:44 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Jul 1 10:35:47 2020.

According to what I heard, the entire Myrtle structure was strong enough to support anything the BMT had including the D types. If the original Jamaica Line structure over Fulton St could support the steels, Myrtle certainly could have.

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(1551983)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Jul 1 19:41:26 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Wed Jul 1 14:48:44 2020.

As long as it was 9 foot wide or less. :)

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(1551985)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Jul 1 19:43:07 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Wed Jul 1 14:48:44 2020.

As long as it was 9 foot wide or less. :)

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(1552040)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by subfan on Thu Jul 2 12:22:17 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Jul 1 19:43:07 2020.

Which is why I asked about the possibility of cutting back the platform edge on the upper level of Myrtle-Broadway. It wasn't possible on most, if not all, of the Myrtle stations south of Broadway due to how the support girders were positioned at the stations, but at that particular station, it seems it may well have been possible.

subfan

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(1552069)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 16:22:01 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 2 12:22:17 2020.

Itís not so much that it wasnít possible to reconstruct the trusswork at those stations but that the cost would have been so prohibitive that the TA felt that it wasnít worth it.


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(1552073)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by subfan on Thu Jul 2 16:46:37 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 16:22:01 2020.

That's true - with enough $$$$, just about anything is possible. My point was that it would have required significant rebuilding, and not just shaving back the platform edges.

subfan

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(1552075)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 17:14:02 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 2 16:46:37 2020.

The trusswork on the platform side would have had to be moved away from the trackside possibly severely narrowing the stairway it was designed to clear. The offside one not so much.

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(1552080)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Jul 2 19:30:47 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 2 16:46:37 2020.

The city was putting some fairly big money into structural improvements, I recently found some photos online of the reconstruction at Vanderbilt Ave and at Navy St to install large spans to eliminate pillars in the cross streets in the mid 40's, so if they really wanted to they could have done it then. Plus the major rehab in 1958 to de-victorianize the stations and stairs. So there was some money to do somethings fairly substantial to the structures at least then. Maybe not the will to do it.



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(1552107)

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Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur

Posted by Express Rider on Fri Jul 3 03:47:37 2020, in response to Re: Third Avenue El 34th Street spur, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Jul 2 19:30:47 2020.

re: photos online of the reconstruction at Vanderbilt Ave and at Navy St to install large spans to eliminate pillars in the cross streets in the mid 40's,

Can you provide a URL or URL's for these if possible?
Thanks.

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