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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 22 15:13:36 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Train Dude on Fri May 22 15:10:24 2020.

Thank you for the correction.

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(1548286)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Fri May 22 15:55:03 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 21 21:45:21 2020.

Actually the shape of the present “W” is consistent with the Roman “U” which looks more like a “V” and is why the letter is phonetically called a “double U."

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(1548291)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:29:41 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri May 22 09:12:49 2020.

Another interesting item about the el operation to the Canarsie Pier is that the el cars changed from 3rd rail to trolley wire at E105 St. hen it was decided to terminate the El at Rock pky, the 3rd reil was extended there. For many years after the line was cut back to Rock Pky, Tk P1 was a bit longer than P2 and went all the way to the curb on Rock Pky.

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(1548292)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:32:53 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 09:30:31 2020.

In the spring of 1956 just before trolley service ended, My father drove us all the way to the Bristol St loop to take a ride on the #35 Church Av trolley. Why he did that I don’t know since we lived in Manhattan and the 39 St end of the line would have been closer for us.

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(1548293)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:34:43 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 11:45:39 2020.

We could use something like that for the homeless since it would be an improvement over shelters.

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(1548295)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Fri May 22 16:38:14 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Fri May 22 15:55:03 2020.

In German, the letter W is pronounced 'vay' and the letter V is pronounced 'fau.'

So the old VW car was known as 'Fau-vay.'

To which one might respond, 'Oy vey!'


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(1548298)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:45:22 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 22 12:56:41 2020.

Many oof the els on both the IRT and BRT/BMT did not have signals on the lcl tks so the M/M operated on sight which allowed closer headways.

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(1548313)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 18:10:48 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:34:43 2020.

We could use something like that for the homeless since it would be an improvement over shelters.

We don't have tracts of vacant land on which to place the Quonset huts.

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(1548317)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 18:47:27 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:45:22 2020.

Many oof the els on both the IRT and BRT/BMT did not have signals on the lcl tks so the M/M operated on sight which allowed closer headways.

It did not. Signals have a negligible effect on service level capacity (or minimum headway), unless the signals are very poorly designed. Here's a link to a talk I gave last year at the Transit Camp about what determines service level capacity.

https://public-transit-time-bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/share/SafeMinimumHeadwayOnASingleTrack.pdf

I kept the math simple. One of the people in the audience was a design engineer from NYCT's signal department. He did not contradict me.

The two sections of track that had the highest actual, documented service levels were the Brooklyn Bridge at 66 tph and the Williamsburg Bridge at 52 tph. Both had signals. Their secret was that the operations merged 2 tracks into 1 and then diverged back into 2 without an intermediate station.

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(1548318)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 19:00:54 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 18:10:48 2020.

The Hole:


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(1548319)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 19:08:47 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 19:00:54 2020.

Is it a brownfield (toxic waste) site?

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(1548321)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 19:24:13 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 19:08:47 2020.

I suspect it is.

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(1548325)

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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 19:44:00 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 21:32:49 2020.

Great! Let us know what you find out.

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(1548340)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri May 22 21:44:59 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by qveensboro_plaza on Fri May 22 16:38:14 2020.

My parents always got their Vs and Ws confused. They always pronounced Volkswagen the German way, "Folksvagen," and my mother would pronounce, "twelve," with a German flavor, "tvelf." They both spoke fluent German and picked up English on the fly after they came here in 1949.

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(1548341)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri May 22 21:45:26 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 08:42:49 2020.

Gevalt.

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(1548345)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Sat May 23 02:54:01 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 12:20:18 2020.

re: "per an article in a contemporary engineering journal"

Could you please post the source/citation?

Sounds like this would be very interesting reading - the more details about one can read and study re: late 19th-early 20th century rapid transit in NYC, the better one can understand the "bigger picture" of transit history and development during that era.
Thank you in advance!

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(1548346)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Sat May 23 03:00:29 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri May 22 21:44:59 2020.

My seventh grade French teacher, an exchange teacher from Oslo was the same way. She always said "werb" for the word "verb." Unfortunately, a number of the other hyperactive 7th grade kids in the class always made fun of her for this.

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(1548355)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 23 07:31:31 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 18:47:27 2020.

Wow, 52 that on the WB, that seems like a lot from basically 3 lines, even if you factor in short turns.

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(1548364)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 09:36:19 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 23 07:31:31 2020.

That was before the completion of the 14th St Line to Canarsie. All the passengers that now use the L had to travel to the Bway or Myrtle lines, plus all the trains from Canarsie.

We might have re-created that scenario but the MTA offered only 30 tph over the WB.

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(1548388)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:04:07 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 22 12:20:18 2020.

Remember, Park Row had 2 tail tracks, until March 31st, 1935.

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(1548426)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:09:34 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:04:07 2020.

It lost more than the tail tracks then; only the two southernmost tracks remained, albeit with a platform extension.

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(1548431)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 22:24:08 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:09:34 2020.

YUP!

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(1548447)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:47:49 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:04:07 2020.

Thanks for the date of closure. So that long extension to Park Row terminal; two tracks stretching west beyond the original iron & glass station lasted until the mid 1930s? Intersting. I have several old post cards of the area which showed this massive extension extending, IIRC (?) out to and maybe above (?) City Hall Park.

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(1548450)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:54:54 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:47:49 2020.

And the original Park Row terminal, with its downtown Bklyn. route to Fulton* Myrtle & Lex remained until 1944 = don't have the month and day at hand right now.


*through 6-1-40 (can't remember now, was it 6-1-40 or a week later that service on the Fulton to Rockaway Av & 5th ave. ceased?)

Wish I could have seen these terminals, Park Row & Sands St. "live" when they existed and were in service.

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(1548534)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 24 21:02:13 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:54:54 2020.

5th Ave-Culver trains stopped operation to Park Row at about noon on May 30th, 1931. This was the same time/date that the Culver subway started service to Chambers St. Except for some rush-hour locals, Fulton St trains then ran to Park Row at all times. Rush hour Park Row service was supplemented with Lexington Ave trains. Myrtle Ave trains ran to Sands St and shared the Loop with all 5th Ave trains (and non rush hour Lex ones) until Oct 22nd, 1932, when it was gradually phased out (on March 10th, 1933, the Loop was closed to revenue traffic). After Unification (6/01/40), both Lexington and Myrtle trains operated to Park Row, until it was closed on March 5th, 1944, at a little past 12 Noon.

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(1548550)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Mon May 25 05:14:35 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 24 21:02:13 2020.

Thank you very much for these details!

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(1548556)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Joe V on Mon May 25 08:36:43 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 24 21:02:13 2020.

How do you keep this all in your head ?

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(1548560)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon May 25 09:13:02 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Joe V on Mon May 25 08:36:43 2020.

crazy glue

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(1548600)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon May 25 16:11:04 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon May 25 09:13:02 2020.

very good!!!

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(1548603)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 25 16:19:14 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon May 25 09:13:02 2020.

Besides the crazy glue, if I find a date for an event somewhere, I'll write it down in my notebook. Sometimes, I'll remember things, but forget exactly where I found them. Like others here, I also have a collection of NYC subway and elevated books that I use for reference. Another source of info is the Brooklyn Eagle online for free. I enjoy doing this stuff for the members here. All, except for the needy indivisuals who demand, "Sources Needed!", unless they are writing a book, or something!

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(1548608)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Union Tpke on Mon May 25 16:24:56 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 25 16:19:14 2020.

I personally ask for sources when I am adding stuff to Wikipedia, which requires that information is verifiable.

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(1548610)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 25 16:30:23 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Union Tpke on Mon May 25 16:24:56 2020.

Okay, that satisfactorily explains your motives. What about the rest of the "Doubting Thomas's here?

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 06:08:09 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 25 16:19:14 2020.

Thank you for all your efforts, posting and sharing info.!

As I've mentioned, my transit collection is in a couple of boxes, and more than one filing cabinet drawer* in my storage unit. If I need to get something specific; after work, I'll go over to the storage building, open my space and get what I need from a folder.

And yes, these days, I'll forget exact details of transit history/ operations, or where I first read or found out about them. Also. I'll copy and paste very informative subchat posts (and other on-line transit material) into WORDPAD docs in my notebook (It's a Toshiba NB505).

Being old school, plans are to print everything out and have someplace like Staples or Fedex Office spiral bind the pages. By this time they may be able to adhere them all together in some kind of book binding process?


*a full drawer for the major part, a partial bottom drawer, for folder of back publications - NY Div. Bulls, Headlights, plus others.
& a box for looseleaf binders of photos.



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(1548679)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 06:13:18 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 25 16:19:14 2020.

My laptop/notebook, or its server service can be a bit slow - newspapers sometimes take ages (or eras!) to download - this is quite frustrating and has unfortunately been the case with the Brooklyn Eagle. Especially, since from what I've seen, the Eagle is an excellent, better than excellent source for NY transit history.

I will only request sources, for my own further reading and learning. I always assume everyone here posts details in good faith and their best efforts at their own personal research.

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(1548681)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 06:42:34 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 25 16:19:14 2020.

re: All, except for the needy indivisuals who demand, "Sources Needed!", unless they are writing a book, or something!

I agree, it's the attitude behind it. Requesting a source for one's own personal research/enjoyment of transit history and operations is one thing - finding and reading the original articles, entries, in transit publications etc. from 50-70 plus years ago is educational and fascinating.

Requesting sources with what sounds like a "doubting Thomas" attitude as you said, is not a good attitude to take towards others' efforts at honestly and responsibly posting historical and operational detail and content here.

And between eventful NY Div meetings, and many personal conversations over the years, it is appropriately understandable that someone might not have at their fingertips or remember a specific source - which may indeed be a conversation rather than an article or entry in for example PSC 1st Division Reports or another source.

There is a whole side to NYC* transit history that is preservation and oral history - old timers who worked in transit, decades ago, passing on information verbally to a younger generation of enthusiasts for them to chronical and save - and this latter is not always the easiest,formally, to cite as a source, but no one should doubt what these individuals have to share.

*and other cities' transit histories (for example, the late George Krambles in Chicago, as a counterpart to Don Harold as a keeper and preserver of transit history)

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(1548728)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Tue May 26 15:14:14 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 06:42:34 2020.

Good point. There were a number of service patterns that existed over the years that were never shown on any TA maps or service guides but were operated for purposes of transferring equipment between lines for certain special services. Those of us who worked them as transit employees or rode them as passengers would be familiar with them but you wouldn’t be able to find them on ant service guide. There were even cases where the service guides actually displayed erroneous information such as the never operated HH Fulton St Lcl between Court St and ENY.

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(1548729)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 26 15:19:33 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 06:08:09 2020.

I often wonder what will happen to SubChat, after all of us old-schoolers are gone!

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(1548733)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 15:58:03 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 26 15:19:33 2020.

hopefully "young schoolers" with sincerity, integrity and continuing/ ongoing depth of interest in transit operations and history will keep this board going for quite awhile, as well as the ERA.

And it seems like most (hopefully all) of us here who post, are still going to be dancing to the Lindy Hop, Limbo Rock, the Twist, Rock, or Macarena [ugh]* for quite awhile.

- heck, present day enthusiasts in London are still writing excellent histories of LU operations etc. from late 19th, early 20th cts. forward

*just my opinion

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(1548735)

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Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 16:10:49 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri May 22 09:12:49 2020.

Awesome, awesome photo!
Your collection is NY Historical Society/Museum of the City of NY quality!

Sept 7, 1938 - My Dad had been in college for about a week.

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(1548740)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 16:25:54 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 15:58:03 2020.

Look at our own Union Turnpike for a positive example.

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(1548742)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 16:54:00 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 16:25:54 2020.

Union Turnpike?
I remember it as being wide very busy and with a narrow center curbed walkway - has it been upgraded, landscaped in some way to make it more attractive, or has it not changed at all, and that's your point?

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(1548748)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue May 26 17:17:25 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 16:54:00 2020.

There is a poster on this site who goes by the handle "Union Turnpike".

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(1548749)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue May 26 17:25:01 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue May 26 17:17:25 2020.

Actually "Union Tpke"

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(1548750)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 17:28:41 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue May 26 17:25:01 2020.

Yeah, that's right. Thanks for pointing that out. How could I have missed/ forgotten that?

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(1548752)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 17:30:34 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue May 26 17:25:01 2020.

My bad. thanks.

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(1548754)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 26 17:34:41 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 26 15:58:03 2020.

so, our both personal and collective duty is to "nurture" young railfans and historians. In early Aug I will give the 5 and nearly 8 year olds next door a small HO train setup.

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(1548763)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by randyo on Tue May 26 18:16:23 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 26 15:19:33 2020.

I’m a little concerned about that too. Much of the info I post here comes from conversations I had with old timers who worked for the IRT and BMT before the city took them over and I also note that certain aspects of the hobby like photos of the car interiors and M/M’s cabs seem to have been totally ignored over the years and are now lost forever. Even among current MTA employees there seems to be a total lack of knowledge of the history behind how and why things got that way so unless those of us who are new to the hobby make an attempt to learn from the old timers, I fear that many aspects of the hobby will be lost.

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(1548773)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 26 19:51:04 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 26 15:19:33 2020.

That will be a sad time. That is why I love this board so much.

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(1548774)

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 26 19:51:18 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 16:25:54 2020.

Thanks so much.

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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question.

Posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 26 19:52:24 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 26 18:16:23 2020.

The loss of historical knowledge is a huge problem that will really bite the MTA.

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