Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station

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Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jan 11 23:01:15 2020 First of all, what exactly is the name of this station? I know it used to be 23rd Street - Ely Avenue. Now I've seen it referred to as both "Court Square" and "Court Square - 23rd Street". Second, why were such exhaustive efforts made to cover up the old "23rd Street - Ely Avenue" wall tablets with that ugly artwork, while at Briarwood station, the old "Van Wyck Boulevard" wall tablets are still out there for all to see? Personally, I'd prefer that none of the old artwork be covered up, like in London. But I can understand how some people of reduced intelligence or familiarity with the system could get confused.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by andy* on Sat Jan 11 23:38:17 2020, in response to Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jan 11 23:01:15 2020.* The E and M (formerly F) station was originally 23rd St-Ely Ave. The G (Crosstown) line station was originally Court Square. The IRT #7 was originally Court House Square - 45th Road. Remember that each of these three stations was separate from the other two - the free transfer between all 3 was added around 2005, if I recall correctly.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jan 12 01:19:06 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by andy on Sat Jan 11 23:38:17 2020.* The renaming of multiple transfer stations was part of an effort to eliminate confusion for passengers transferring between the lines that stop there. Boston did that with several of their inter line transfer stations many years earlier.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by The silence* on Sun Jan 12 01:54:10 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by andy on Sat Jan 11 23:38:17 2020.* The transfer between the two IND branches was added in the 1980s when the Citigroup tower was built. The OOS system transfer was added to the 7 in 2001 after the opening of the 63rd Street tunnel, and the transfer was made in system within the last decade.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Sun Jan 12 08:01:26 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by The silence on Sun Jan 12 01:54:10 2020.* As I recall, however, the G continued on to Queens Plaza to terminate at certain off-hours, even after the connection at Court Sq to the E (and F at the time) already existed.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by zac* on Sun Jan 12 08:23:51 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 12 01:19:06 2020.* And then there is also Atlantic Ave - Barclays Center. Pacific Street is no longer the name of the D/N/R station even though it hasn't been covered up.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Sun Jan 12 09:05:59 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by andy on Sat Jan 11 23:38:17 2020.* Then there's Van Vyck Blvd., now known as Briarwood. My guess is they'll leave the tilework alone there along with 23rd-Ely.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Mitch45* on Sun Jan 12 09:55:04 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 12 09:05:59 2020.* I thought 23rd - Ely was covered up, at least the big tablets.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by italianstallion* on Sun Jan 12 11:13:23 2020, in response to Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jan 11 23:01:15 2020.* One difference is that a road called Van Wyck still exists. There is no street named Ely Avenue any more.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Mitch45* on Sun Jan 12 11:18:07 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jan 12 11:13:23 2020.* There hasn’t been a road called Van Wyck Boulevard in over 50 years.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by italianstallion* on Sun Jan 12 11:39:23 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jan 12 11:18:07 2020.* Did I say Van Wyck Boulevard?
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by italianstallion* on Sun Jan 12 11:40:31 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jan 12 11:18:07 2020.* For 50 years after the name of Astoria Ave. was changed to Astoria Blvd., there were station signs there reading Astoria Ave.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by pragmatist* on Sun Jan 12 11:40:43 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jan 12 11:13:23 2020.* Actually there is still one in NYC, just no where near the one in question. It's in the Bronx.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Sun Jan 12 12:20:41 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jan 12 09:55:04 2020.* IINM the wall tilework is still there. It's in very nice shape, too.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jan 12 16:31:50 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jan 12 11:40:31 2020.* The same was true for Ditmars which was an avenue upgraded to a boulevard. Lefferts station signs read “Lefferts Avenue” right up until the IND took over the line in 1956 even though the avenue had been upgraded to a boulevard years earlier.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Sun Jan 12 18:55:07 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jan 12 11:13:23 2020.* The Flushing Line has several stations with names that are never found anywhere on the street...Like Fisk Ave!
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by italianstallion* on Sun Jan 12 19:21:42 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 12 18:55:07 2020.* LOL.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by mack c-49* on Sun Jan 12 19:57:27 2020, in response to Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jan 11 23:01:15 2020.* I agree that the historic tilework should be left in place. Additional contemporary signage and audio announcements can provide whatever clarification is necessary. The old tilework, in addition to its aesthetic, reflects a history which it would behoove us not to forget or obscure
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by FYBklyn1959* on Sun Jan 12 20:09:11 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by zac on Sun Jan 12 08:23:51 2020.* And the current Broadway Junction, which was Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction (J/Z and L?) and Broadway-East New York (A, C) (using the current lines that stop there to avoid confusion).
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jan 12 21:16:44 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 12 18:55:07 2020.* Up until recently, many if not all of the elevated stations in Queens carried both the original street names as well as the new numbers that were assigned when the Queens streets were changed from names to numbers.
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PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by gbs* on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020, in response to Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Jan 11 23:01:15 2020.* In the 1960s the TA hired a design firm to create simplified and unified signage. In their analysis the consultants found, among other complexities, two opposite problems: "same name -- different things" and "different names -- same thing". Examples of the first, which is harder to solve, include the three unconnected stations in Brooklyn named "Van Siclen Av", (J/Z, A/C, 3), the two "Fifth Av" stations in Manhattan (E/M, N/R/W), and the two "Seventh Av" stations, one in Manhattan (B,D,E) and one in Brooklyn (B,Q), and the B stops at both! There are lots of other similar examples, both within one borough and across boroughs. Examples of the second, which has been easier to correct, include Broadway Junction (L), Eastern Parkway (J,Z), and Broadway - East New York (A,C), now all called Broadway Junction; Myrtle Av (L) and Wyckoff Av (M), now called Myrtle-Wyckoff; Fulton St (2,3,4,5,J,Z) and Broadway-Nassau (A,C), now called Fulton St; and the attempt at Court Square, which is partially successful (because of the beautiful IND name tablets). The "artwork" was installed when storage closets were created on both platforms by building false walls and converting some of the double-width floor area into single-width platform. One name tablet on each platform was lost behind the false walls (they're in the closets, which are parallelogram-shaped), but all the others are still there in all their glory. The dark red band on the top of the false walls is darker than the original stripe, but they did a commendable job in keeping the spirit of the original design.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sun Jan 12 21:38:30 2020, in response to PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by gbs on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020.* Super nerd nitpick: as the rooms are not 2-dimensional and have height, they are not parallelogram-shaped, but parallelepiped-shaped.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sun Jan 12 21:38:44 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 12 21:38:30 2020.* USELESS POST
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jan 12 21:59:01 2020, in response to PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by gbs on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020.* The same name/different things is unavoidable since the same thoroughfare is often served by different lines on different parts of the street/avenue. It is most common in Manhattan where all major north south subway lines serve the same cross streets like 14 St, 23 St, 96 St etc.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sun Jan 12 23:21:06 2020, in response to PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by gbs on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020.* I believe there are 3 Seventh Avenue stations. From the north &th/53rd, in Brooklyn, Seventh Ave on the tunnel to the Brighton, and Seventh Ave on the Smith St, South Brooklyn and 2 Clinton Washington Aves
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by TheGreatOne2k9* on Sun Jan 12 23:36:55 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 12 18:55:07 2020.* Most of the names do exist on at least one green street sign (except Lincoln and Fisk)
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by gbs* on Mon Jan 13 02:01:45 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 12 21:59:01 2020.* That's why it's so hard to correct this complexity. Here's one attempt by the TA at the three Lexington Av stations: The original signs at these stations said simply "Lexington Ave", as do the original mosaics at the BMT station:
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 13 02:27:37 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 12 23:21:06 2020.* There are also 3 Ft Hamilton Pkys, on the F, the N and the D and when the Culver Shuttle was still running there was a fourth.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Mon Jan 13 04:35:28 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Sun Jan 12 23:36:55 2020.* Interestingly, 75th Ave. is shown on bygone maps as 75th-Puritan Ave., but on the station walls, there is no mention of Puritan Ave.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Dave* on Mon Jan 13 05:41:38 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 12 21:38:44 2020.* In the extremist.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Joe V* on Mon Jan 13 07:10:28 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 12 21:16:44 2020.* Not on The Jamaica el.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Mon Jan 13 08:27:31 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 13 04:35:28 2020.* Slattery Plaza lives on I believe though (at Woodhaven Blvd).
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Elkeeper* on Mon Jan 13 11:02:54 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 12 16:31:50 2020.* Didn't the R-10's have "Lefferts Blvd" markers on their roll signs, even before the extension from B'way- East NY?
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Joe V* on Mon Jan 13 11:12:07 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Jan 13 08:27:31 2020.* Probably a good idea just to distinguish from the Jamaica el station a few miles south.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 13 11:13:39 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 13 11:12:07 2020.* But it lives on only in the mosaics. The name of the station in all other situations is Woodhaven Boulevard-Queens Mall.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Joe V* on Mon Jan 13 11:42:21 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 13 11:13:39 2020.* Like 23rd - Ely.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Orange Blossom Special* on Mon Jan 13 12:17:15 2020, in response to PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by gbs on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020.* I'm looking at the length of this platform. They should've made the trains 45 feet wide so the platforms and shorter.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Mon Jan 13 12:25:51 2020, in response to PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by gbs on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020.* At the west end of 65th St on the IND Queeens local tracks, there was a never (?) used entrance with wall mosaics saying "Rowan Street" with a sealed up street entrance. Next time I'm in town, got to see if any traces remain.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 13 13:11:45 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 13 11:42:21 2020.* Exactly.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 13 17:28:46 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 12 21:16:44 2020.* Interesting point. I’m not sure of the exact chronology of the Queens el structures but it may be that the Jamaica el structure was built just about the time or shortly after the street names were changed so unlike the Flushing, Astoria and Fulton els the names were omitted.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 13 18:16:52 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 13 11:02:54 2020.* I believe they did even though the R-11s which had both BMT and IND roll signs also included “Lefferts Avenue."
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Mon Jan 13 18:21:55 2020, in response to PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by gbs on Sun Jan 12 21:31:55 2020.* Do they even need all that behind-the-wall space, that platform gets quite cramped now that it's a full blown transfer station. Alternatively, build a transfer passage directly from the 44dr end of the 7 platform to the E/M at 23st.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 13 19:06:59 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 13 17:28:46 2020.* That is exactly correct.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 13 19:10:50 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 13 17:28:46 2020.* Also 111th Street was built later than the rest of the Corona/Flushing Line to the west and therefore always used a number with no name. The explanation for Ely Avenue is that Queens wasn’t converted all at once, and LIC was converted later. Ely (and Van Alst for that matter) lasted longer and given that the area was already heavily developed, survived in the popular consciousness to the time of the IND. Continental survives to this day within Forest Hills Gardens.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 13 19:19:11 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 13 19:10:50 2020.* I noticed that when I checked the opening dates of the various Queens el stations The first Queens el stations were those on the Fulton St el followed by those on the Jamaica Av el with the stations on the Astoria and Flushing Lines last.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Mon Jan 13 19:44:06 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 13 18:16:52 2020.* Some had Fulton St Lefferts Blvd., but I don't ever remember seeing one of those. All the ones I saw said, Fulton-Lefferts Blvd.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Andrew Saucci* on Mon Jan 13 20:45:15 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 13 18:21:55 2020.* I agree about a direct transfer from the E/M to the 7-- to go from the west end of the E/M platform to the 7 is quite a hike when the platforms are right near one another. What can we do to inflate the cost of such a transfer to at least $500,000,000 so that such a project could be considered?
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by gbs* on Mon Jan 13 20:52:03 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 13 12:25:51 2020.* And the same is true at the next station, Northern Blvd, with an abandoned exit at 56 St at the east end of the platform. Almost all the original IND stations were built with exits at both ends. Many are still in use, but many were long ago abandoned.
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Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station
Posted by VictorM* on Mon Jan 13 21:25:43 2020, in response to Re: Question About Court Sq- 23rd Street Station, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 13 17:28:46 2020.* The Jamaica Av el stations in Queens opened in 1917-18, the same time they began numbering the streets and avenues. Interestingly, the Liberty Avenue stations in Queens opened in 1915, only a few years earlier, and still retain the original names: Hudson St, Boyd Avenue, Oxford Avenue and Greenwood Avenue.
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Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Mon Jan 13 22:51:38 2020, in response to Re: PHOTO: Artwork and name tablet, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Jan 13 20:45:15 2020.* Hmm, alternatively, they could make the transfer cost some nominal fee, like .25, immune to any unlimited ride cards (so will always use the ppr balance), to help recoup the cost. Once the thing is paid for (once the final dollar price of the contract is equaled to in these usage fees, no interest based funny accounting), take off the fee.
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