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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:19:43 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 11:36:42 2019.

Bullshit. There was a proposal for a bridge designed by Gustav Lindenthal which was to have landed at 23rd Street, south of where you believe there was a steam ban, but the railroads pulled out after the Panic of 1893.

There is, an original cornerstone for the bridge’s NJ anchorage in Hoboken.

Since, like everything else, you seem to have no understanding of how free markets work: any bridge located at or about Chambers Street would have been a non-starter given high real estate values.

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(1531647)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:20:36 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:32:07 2019.

East of Locust Manor. The plan was to run through Baisley Park.

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(1531650)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:29:31 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 14:05:10 2019.

He calls the Packers socialistic, but it’s owned by shareholders as a coöperative. It’s not socialistic at all. If you really knew anything, you could have pointed that out instead of doubling down.

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(1531651)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Wed Dec 4 14:38:28 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:02:46 2019.

According to an NYT article, link found on this page, the law was specific to the New York and Harlem Railroad.

BTW, for those who like to submit corrections, there’s some bad info here—do a Ctrl+F search for 1854, and you’ll see “all” and “32nd Street.”

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(1531653)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:49:56 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Wed Dec 4 14:38:28 2019.

IAWTP

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(1531654)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 14:50:07 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:29:31 2019.

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/those-non-profit-packers

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(1531656)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 15:05:29 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 14:50:07 2019.

Nonprofit≠socialist

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(1531657)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 15:38:47 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 15:05:29 2019.

no. the Ford (and other NGOs) are private organizations NOT owned through the government. OTOH MTA, PATH, NJT, and most other rail or bus transit in the US is socialist by definition. Service provided by an entity of the government.

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(1531658)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 15:40:30 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 15:38:47 2019.

How is this at all relevant to your claim about the Packers’ ownership?

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(1531671)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 17:25:24 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 15:40:30 2019.

I was responding to your post Non profit = socialist. For example, Central Electric Railfans Assn and ERA--non profit corps. in their respective home states (unlike most US for profit corps. which are officially are headquartered in Delaware as it has the loosest laws) -- are hardly socialist. They are independent historical research and publishing entities.

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(1531672)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 17:27:29 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:19:43 2019.

PRR had a fee hand in ripping out a lot of junk real estate and tenements in the future Penn Station area. They would never have had that option in lower Manhattan. Of course they had to purchase and bankroll the LIRR to get a charter to even get into Manhattan.

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(1531673)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 17:28:16 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 3 21:29:56 2019.

They needed NYS's permission to get a charter.

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(1531678)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:02:46 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 17:25:24 2019.

That’s the “not equal” symbol.

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Dec 4 18:07:44 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 17:28:16 2019.

A "charter" to allow construction??

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:11:44 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 17:27:29 2019.

And despite the fact that they needed to build tracks clear across Manhattan, all of their street level buildings and demolitions were in the then low rent Hell’s Kitchen west of 7th. They didn’t even push through an extra block to reach Herald Square.

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:15:43 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 17:28:16 2019.

Not exactly. Corporations all have charters from the government. The corporate form would not exist without such charters from the government. It’s a form you fill out and a fee you have to pay. Back then, this streamlined process did not exist and all RR corporate charters needed to be passed by the legislature.

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 18:15:57 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:11:44 2019.

They did have to prop up the 9th Avenue el. I forgot why they chose this location as opposed to another cross street like 23rd.

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 18:19:58 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Dec 4 18:07:44 2019.

To enter the state.

PRR bought smaller railroads in upstate NY to get to Lake Ontario ore docks via Elmira, Buffalo via Mayville, and via Olean.



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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:20:19 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 01:10:45 2019.

Other than permission to demap a public street, the permit process is a government obstacle to private actions. In a libertarian dreamland, it would not exist. So, I don’t doubt that as government involvement, even though it’s necessary for public safety. Demolitions were done privately.

Of course, libertarians don’t believe in public streets either.

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(1531686)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Dec 4 18:27:22 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 01:10:45 2019.

That seems more like a "red tape" deal rather than a direct involvement in construction.


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(1531688)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:30:51 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 18:15:57 2019.

Because it would not go through to LIC, but to Greenpoint.

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 5 04:01:42 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 18:19:58 2019.

Yeah, the state governments were up to their eyeballs in charter issues. The story goes that when Gould needed the NYS Legislature to okay his Erie RR,he went to Albany w/ $1.5 million in cash and checks,coming back with a charter and no money. PA blocked the B&O for quite a while at the behest of the PRR, and MD did the same to PRR between Baltimore and DC. .

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(1531725)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Dec 5 06:53:47 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 18:19:58 2019.

Yeah, charters are also why the PRR bought the LIRR. The LIRR had the charter to tunnel under the East River, the PRR did not. I wonder if that's the reason why the PRR held on to the money-losing LIRR for so long, until NYS created the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority to take the LIRR off its hands.

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(1531727)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 5 07:06:44 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by 3-9 on Thu Dec 5 06:53:47 2019.

By 1953 and the LIRR bankruptcy, PRR declared they would no longer bankroll the LIRR. It had not turned a profit since 1917. So it was NYS-DOT starting to contribute capital funds until the MCTA was created, or else the LIRR would have quickly disappeared like the Midwest interurbans.

Too bad UMTA was created too late to save the CA&E and CNS&W. It took a federal housing grant in 1965 to merely restore the North Shore line to Dempster in Skokie, and the C&NW took over a segment north of it, since abandoned. By that time, the rest of the railroad had been scrapped by Susquehanna Corp, equipment, rails, and all.



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(1531742)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:45:19 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 07:36:29 2019.

Lot of those examples you gave were originally spearheaded, started, or conceptualized by Donald J Trump years ago.

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(1531744)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:46:37 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Dec 4 18:27:22 2019.

Zoning, rules, regulations, kickbacks, taxes, easements...etc is just "red tape"?

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(1531745)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:47:22 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:20:19 2019.

I think I go for the day. I just witnesses the most retarded and uneducated thing I have ever heard.....ever.

Thank you.

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(1531746)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:48:38 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 18:02:46 2019.

Oh yes, I remember when I gave you the official not-equal symbol, and up until your post there, you still claimed it meant equal.

Your a funny one, mr. grinch.


Nice try!

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(1531761)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 5 12:11:38 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 5 07:06:44 2019.

for historical accuracy, the Skokie Swift began service in 64 not 65. I was there.

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(1531762)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 5 12:37:57 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:48:38 2019.

Dumbass. I never claimed any such thing. You must have me confused with one of your fellow idiots.

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(1531763)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 5 12:38:42 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:45:19 2019.

LOL!

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 6 10:43:39 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 18:15:57 2019.

Because they had to use the LIRR franchise, and their tracks were in LIC.

ROAR

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(1531878)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 6 10:54:03 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 01:10:45 2019.

LIRR owned the franchise to build tunnels to Manhattan...

PRR bought LIRR in order to obtain that franchise.

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 6 15:48:08 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 5 09:45:19 2019.

DJT is incapable of conceptualizing anything.

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(1531927)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 6 16:11:12 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 6 15:48:08 2019.

I think he was capable, way back when.

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(1535471)

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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 15 12:09:37 2020, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 21:11:01 2019.

BUMP

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