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| Andy's Almanac - December 1 (1531344) | |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Dec 1 18:09:46 2019, in response to Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by andy on Sun Dec 1 10:27:15 2019. Souped-up standards became the craze along the I Love Lucy line.:) |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Dec 1 19:48:37 2019, in response to Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by andy on Sun Dec 1 10:27:15 2019. I remember as a kid traveling with my folks getting on a train of BMT Standards at the 65th St Sta in Woodside to change for an E or F at Queens Plaza. It was the first time I saw a Standard & I couldn't figure out how you knew what train what you were getting on since there were no route/destination signs on the front.I was used to the R12/14s on the Flushing Line & the R1/9s on the GG which had front end route & destination signs. Makes me wonder when the BMT encroached on Hyland's IND, how many folks got on the wrong train & wound up in Manhattan instead of Greenpoint? |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by gbs on Sun Dec 1 22:17:33 2019, in response to Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by andy on Sun Dec 1 10:27:15 2019. Excellent history! Two more observations: 1) the tower controlling the new junction in Queens where the new connector split from the Astoria tracks used to be right in the groin where the Queens-bound split occurs. The room is still there but has been dark since the master tower was implemented. 2) the Queens-bound connector track merges with the IND Queens-bound local track right at the Queens Plaza platform, so they built a wall alongside the local track at the switch, shortening the length of the local side of the platform at the south end. The wall was tiled in the original style, even though it was 20+ years later. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Dec 2 00:17:10 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Dec 1 19:48:37 2019. All trains have side signs which passengers should know how to read. How do passengers who come down the stairs and board in the middle of the train know what trains they are on if they can’t see the end signs? |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Dec 2 14:23:01 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by randyo on Mon Dec 2 00:17:10 2019. True. But I was speaking from a then 5 year old's perspetive, already on the platform looking down the track at the oncoming train and not used to seeing Standards. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by gbs on Mon Dec 2 22:08:08 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Dec 2 14:23:01 2019. Most of the passengers who will board a train are already on the platform and are looking to a front sign to know what train it is. Of course the side signs are useful, but growing up with the arnines and with their front signs, I too wondered when I first saw a standard how the riders knew what train it was. Of course there were the colored lights for those who knew about them.... |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 3 01:44:42 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by gbs on Mon Dec 2 22:08:08 2019. Until the World’s Fair Steinways arrived, none of the trains on the IRT had front end signs either although an IRT old timer once told me that the Deck Roof Hi-Vs were designed that way with the intention of installing end signs on the cars which never happened. Prior to the introduction of the D types, none of the trains on either of the private lines had end signs nor did the trains on the H&M. In those days people learned how to deal with the way the system was and survived quite well without the use of numbers, letters or fancy colors to help them out. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by gbs on Tue Dec 3 01:54:26 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 3 01:44:42 2019. I remember that at a family gathering when I was a kid my dad and uncle were reminiscing about their youth on the subways (in the 1930s) and remembering what colored lights meant a "Jerome" train and what colored lights meant "White Plains". Until then I had no idea they ever paid attention to those details. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 3 02:46:10 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by gbs on Tue Dec 3 01:54:26 2019. just like my aunt teaching me as a kid how to tell an Englewood A from Jackson Park B at a distance because of colored lights. Same story on the IC Electric; South Chicago trains had different color "marker lights" from Blue Island or Matteson trains. you could tell those lights longbefore you could read the destination signs. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Dec 3 11:24:05 2019, in response to Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by andy on Sun Dec 1 10:27:15 2019. Thank you. I have on my office wall a copy (original is in a drawer) of a 1963 subway map my mom gave me. The map seems to go out of its way to emphasize that the connection was only available Monday-Friday. I guess in those days, running a service over the BMT and IND really was a big, an sort of awkward deal- even 23 years after unification.I also note that running that service weekdays only presented a real inconvenience to people on weekends. Say on a summer Saturday in 1975 my mom wanted to take me from Steinway Street to Cortland, Rector, or Whitehall- we would have to board a GG, switch to an F at Queens Plaza (not hard), and then navigate the 34th Street complex (can be quite confusing for those who don't do it often) to find the RR. A real connection, as opposed to a mere convenience, was unavailable to a lot of people. Making this trip outside of weekdays involved two transfers, one of them a real pain. On the other hand, today's W is similar to the EE in that it's a supplemental Broadway local. But- losing it on weekends is less of a big deal. If I myself (mom is sadly no longer physically up to a subway ride) need to get from Ditmars Blvd to Whitehall, I can take the N and make one easy switch to the R anywhere between Lexington Ave and Prince Street. So the W is definitely nice to have- but losing it on weekends isn't nearly the big deal that losing the EE was. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Dec 3 11:25:47 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 3 01:44:42 2019. Well, yes, people can learn. But clearly designating routes is the better way to go, especially when we have so many tourists in town. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 3 12:44:19 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 3 01:44:42 2019. People learned how to deal with the way the system was back then because they didn't have any choice. You, me or anyone else had no way of knowing how many folks got on wrong trains due to not enough or misunderstanding information based on side signs. Apparently, someone at the BoT got the brilliant idea of having front end destination signs on all new equiptment in an attempt to reduce the number of misrouted passengers.My guess is that if there wasn't a need for more information, they wouldn't have spent the $$$ needed to have front end route & destination signs in the first place. This reminds me of how many crusty old school motormen hated the idea of speedometers in their cabs. Any motorman worth his salt would be able to judge speed without them was their attitude. Thats progress I guess, better information & better safety. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 3 17:18:49 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 3 12:44:19 2019. Although end signs are useful, at some point the cesspool of incompetence that passes for TA management decided that destination signs on the ends of trains were no longer necessary and eliminated them starting with the R-40s. Even the post Chrystie signs for the R-27/30s and up placed the route signs in the destination box and eliminated the end destination signs altogether. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by K. Trout on Wed Dec 4 00:19:17 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Dec 3 11:24:05 2019. It's not like the current weekend situation on Queens Blvd is much better, and it's arguably worse given how much Williamsburg has grown in the last decade and a half. Steinway Street to, say, Metropolitan Ave (Crosstown) requires a cross-platform R->E transfer, then a loooong E->G transfer, and it's reasonable to be pessimistic about how well those intervals will line up. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by gbs on Wed Dec 4 01:10:59 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 3 17:18:49 2019. The drawing of the R40 prototype that appeared on the back of the 1966 subway map did in fact show the destination ("Queens Plaza") above the large rectangular letter ("E"), but it was just an artist's (mis-)conception. As delivered there was only the letter and EXP/LOCAL above the storm door (later removed).   The R40Ms came with just the letter (but with a very handsome front design).  Front destination signs are very important on certain lines such as the Queens-bound A, with three possible end points.   
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 4 07:12:01 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by K. Trout on Wed Dec 4 00:19:17 2019. Also (on weekends) getting from Steinway to any of the 6th Avenue Stations north of West 4th Street. Doing so would require either doubling back to Roosevelt for the F, or transferring at Queens Plaza (not hard) and to the F at West 4th (mildly inconvenient). Of course, there could be some convenient GO causing the F to run local, solving this problem.As for accessing the G, this was the result of a deliberate choices made in 2001 and 2010 (and unlikely to ever be reversed) to prioritize having 2 locals to Manhattan over crosstown access. I suppose with the SAS now open, it would be possible to run the M to 96th/2nd full time (or nearly so) and restore the G to Queens Blvd. But in 2001, Brooklyn hadn't yet built up the way it has now, and in 2010, there was no place else for the M to go once they stopped going through Montague ( I suppose they could have terminated at Chambers, but that would really be a little used route). So much as there should be a good direct connection between Brooklyn and Queens, I don't see the G ever coming back to Queens Blvd. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Dec 4 09:52:39 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 4 07:12:01 2019. Another way to get from Steinway to 6th Av is transfer to the E at Queens Plaza, then to the downtown D at 7th Av (a simple across-the-platform transfer). But if you wanted 23 or 14 St, you'd have to transfer to the F at 50, 42 or 34 St. |
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Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 5 07:09:17 2019, in response to Re: Andy's Almanac - December 1, posted by VictorM on Wed Dec 4 09:52:39 2019. Thanks. I totally forgot about 7th Avenue. And transfers at the same platform aren't hard, even if you need 2 of them to complete the trip.The doubling back from 7th Avenue is a minor inconvenience, but people can manage it. On WMATA, if you need to travel between King Street and Virginia Square, you'll need a switch and reverse at Rosslyn. I've done it myself, and I was far from the only person doing it. |
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