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| Re: Subway route letter uses (1527397) | |
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Re: Subway route letter uses |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 24 11:44:48 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 24 09:09:36 2019. Yet TT and QJ ran all day. RJ and M were rush hours. After November 1967 the "TT" ran only as a shuttle between 36th Street and Coney Island. The hours of operation were Mon-Sat 12 mid to 6 AM and 8 PM to 12 mid and at all times on Sunday. This lasted until July 1969 when it was replaced by full time "B" service. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 24 11:50:27 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 24 11:44:48 2019. I meant the pre-Chrystie TT. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 24 11:55:18 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 24 11:50:27 2019. I meant the pre-Chrystie TT. You're right Joe. Pre-Chrystie Street the "TT" ran weekdays from about 6 AM to 6 PM between Chambers Street and Bay Parkway (rush) and Coney Island (midday). Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Subway route letter uses |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 17:45:14 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 24 07:43:04 2019. You would still need a 24/7 service via the tunnel between 4 Av and Bway truncating the Qns R would not cut it. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 17:50:24 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 24 09:00:11 2019. You have your chronology a bit off. It was July of 1968 when 57/6 opened and the KK service via Chrystie started. It was also the date when the south terminals for the D and QJ were swapped terminating Ds at BBC when operating as Brighton expresses and extending the QJ to Stl. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 24 18:35:42 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 17:45:14 2019. No you don't. Transfer at 14th Street. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Oct 24 21:50:55 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 24 18:35:42 2019. What about passengers getting on the local south of 14th?Take the long walk at Canal. Fine. What about passengers getting on at City Hall, Rector, Cortlandt? Are they supposed to "back ride? Sorry, you can't arbitrarily cut out connecting service between Whitehall & Court. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 25 00:25:35 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Oct 24 21:50:55 2019. No one is really expecting that.Whitehall is a pretty important station today.. Westside IRT,Staten island ferry and express buses. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 25 17:47:49 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Oct 24 21:50:55 2019. We are talking about the middle of the night when the R doesn't run north of Whitehall as it is and the N runs via Tunnel to replace it. There is no issue about cutting off Whitehall from Court Street. There is also the J on Nassau Street that would replace the R south of Broad Street. |
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| (1528094) | |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 25 23:04:33 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 24 11:44:48 2019. The TT made its last runs on Sunday, June 30, 1968. The following day, the new 57th St. station opened and the B began running 24/7. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 26 14:35:04 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 25 17:47:49 2019. Another problem is that the J is limited to 8 X 60 ft car trains whereas even S/O Whitehall, the R needs 600 ft trains. |
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| (1528156) | |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 26 15:05:04 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 25 23:04:33 2019. 57/6 opened up on a Sunday right after midnight. I rode the first train in. |
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Posted by BusRider on Sat Oct 26 15:42:15 2019, in response to Subway route letter uses, posted by andy on Sun Oct 20 17:34:23 2019. Does anyone know why the K was not kept when merged with CC or AA? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 26 16:43:38 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 26 14:35:04 2019. The service demands in southern Brooklyn along the 4th Ave local wouldn't suffer.The J is frequent enough to handle the loads/traffic. The Problem here isn't the train length..it's the inconsistent headways, missing intervals..all too often delays in service. The J doesn't interline with many other routes except the M. Two less cars won't be the be all to end all situation. Consistent service is the key. |
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Re: Subway route letter uses |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 26 16:45:25 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 26 14:35:04 2019. The service demands in southern Brooklyn along the 4th Ave local wouldn't suffer.The J is frequent enough to handle the loads/traffic. The Problem here isn't the train length..it's the inconsistent headways, missing intervals..all too often delays in service. The J doesn't interline with many other routes except the M. Two less cars won't be the be all to end all situation. Consistent service is the key. In all honesty, the R IS The Problem. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 26 17:21:26 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 26 14:35:04 2019. I'd also extend te W to 36th Street or 9th Avenue. That takes some load off the 95th Street local and its need for 600' train. So it would be the J and the W. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 26 18:47:08 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by BusRider on Sat Oct 26 15:42:15 2019. I can't speak for the MTA, but "K" just never felt right to me as a replacement designation for the AA. I would have preferred "I", no one would really confuse an IND train with the 1, especially if they wrote it with serifs. Then the 8th Ave. line would have been the A-C-E-I. Three vowels. It fits a lot better than A-C-E-K. But they went with K, and I think they regretted it from the start. Many K trains were not signed as K at all. So they dumped it and made the C the main 8th Avenue local. For a time, it terminated at 145th St. non-rush hours, meaning the A had to make local stops at 155th and 163rd when the B wasn't running to 168th. Then they swapped north terminals of the B and C and the C effectively became an extended version of the old AA. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 26 19:01:51 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 26 18:47:08 2019. It consolidates the alphabet of routes headed up CPW. They may also have had the option of using K for a skip stop L. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Oct 27 06:09:01 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 26 19:01:51 2019. I heard they wanted to use K for skip-stop with the J (again, or rather like the KK had been), but decided that moving the letter immediately from one service to a different one was a bad idea, and so went with Z instead. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 27 07:51:08 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Oct 27 06:09:01 2019. They had just redone all the mylar route signs on the SMEE's in the late 1980's in the GOH, and there was no Brown K. |
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| (1528276) | |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Oct 27 13:38:43 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 25 00:25:35 2019. Absolutely. When Mrs. Main and/or I need to get to Court Street (not infrequently) from our Staten Island home, it's a SIM bus to the first Manhattan stop, then R to Court. Yes, the 4 is also close by, but for this use, the R is just better. Hard to say why.But the tip UPTOWN on the R is really, seriously, majorly drag-ass. The long dwell at Canal St. especially sucks. |
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| (1528278) | |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 27 13:52:39 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Oct 27 13:38:43 2019. Exactly.I lived in West Brighton/Port Richmond area.. and when I needed to get to the city I usually rode the express bus X10 to Manhattan. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 27 18:58:33 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 27 07:51:08 2019. I had also heard that the reason the Z was chosen for the Jamaica Line skip stop was that there was consideration of using K for a proposed L Line skip stop. Actually since the H is not used officially for the Rock Pk Shuttle but only internally, the H could have been used for the 8 Av/Fulton lcl since the H was originally for the Fulton St lcl and it would not have been incorrect to use it for the service to Wash Hts which it is for the C. The IND had a specific logic linking the letters of its uptown branch lines with its Manhattan trunk lines, That logic went out the window when the B and C letters were swapped. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Oct 28 00:24:57 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 26 15:05:04 2019. After midnight means it was Monday. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 28 02:38:45 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Oct 28 00:24:57 2019. No, it was after midnight on a Saturday making it Sunday. Remember, I was there! |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Oct 28 04:45:35 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Mon Oct 28 02:38:45 2019. There's no substitute for an eyewitness account.:) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 28 07:22:43 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 26 16:43:38 2019. I agree. I work in the downtown core of Manhattan. So my usual trip to work and back is the SIM 32 bus. But I frequently have a need to go to the NYU area, and my primary doctor is near 4th Avenue (Brooklyn), and my wife often needs to Court Street. So I use the R with some frequency.Even with a 600' train (10 R160s or 8 R46s), it's just awful. Slow. Infrequent, and often crowded. The crowds result from the long waits between delayed and skipped intervals. Say I'm traveling between Whitehall and 8th- I might be the first person (not counting homeless) to reach the platform. But after a 12-15 minute wait, it's packed. The W doesn't help all that much because they clearly only send it immediately after an R. So even a shorter train that actually ran reliably would definitely be a better service. |
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Posted by zac on Mon Oct 28 08:28:51 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 27 18:58:33 2019. That logic made sense when it was just the IND but after Chrystie it was more of an inconvenience to route planning where routes had so many more options |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Oct 29 08:55:06 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 17:45:14 2019. The N overnight and whenever needed to cover. |
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Posted by zac on Tue Oct 29 09:40:22 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 28 07:22:43 2019. I can't say that I've ever seen an R train truly crowded. Nobody wants Nassau St from southern Brooklyn though, when the M ran through it was consistently empty. As an occasional alternate route to work I would take it to Chambers St from Dekalb and transfer there to the 4/5, and the load was pretty light in the height of rush hour, and this is probably the last time I was at Chambers St. Is it still a horror? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 29 16:57:47 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Mon Oct 28 02:38:45 2019. Well, I don't want to challenge your memory, but the official opening date was Monday, July 1, and all the accounts I have seen say it opened about midnight Sunday night/Monday morning. Maybe a little before midnight. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 29 18:03:04 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 29 16:57:47 2019. Employee picks go into effect on Sunday, the first day of the TA workweek. I not only rode the first train in, but I was a Tw/M at the time and although the 50/6 interlocking is usually set on automatic, the trainmaster in the tower placed the machine on manual and allowed me to line the first train up into 57 St after which I boarded the train and rode it in. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 29 18:47:35 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by zac on Mon Oct 28 08:28:51 2019. However, lines that operate on the BMT could use a slightly different logic from lines that are exclusively IND. The A, C, E, F, G operate only on the IND and not on any BMT lines and could be classified as IND and be lettered by using the IND branch to trunk logic. The B, D, M, and R while operating on the IND also operate as constituent BMT lines and can be considered BMT. The rest of the lines, J, L, N, Q, and W operate entirely on the BMT so there is no ambiguity there although some might question how to classify the Q but since it doesn’t share trackage with any other line than could be considered IND, I would keep it in the BMT family. Even if the upper SAS eventually becomes an official part of the IND, Since the Q is a BMT service for most of its length I would consider it BMT. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 29 18:55:20 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 29 18:03:04 2019. Interesting. But was the train in regular revenue service? Were there non-employees on it? And did the station stay open throughout Sunday, or close and reopen some 23 hours later? If this was a revenue train and the station stayed open all day Sunday, then all the other write-ups about the opening of that station are wrong. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 29 19:07:56 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 29 18:47:35 2019. Since the Eastern Division has no revenue service link with the Southern Division, you can justify calling the entire Eastern Division the IND. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 29 19:14:55 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Oct 29 08:55:06 2019. Overnight OK, but what about the rest of the day? |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Oct 29 20:15:32 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 29 19:14:55 2019. You are right, that is problematic. I’d be tempted to run the N through there from the beginning of “work train staging” in the evening, though not 24/7. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 29 20:26:49 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 29 19:07:56 2019. I guess that why the Dept of Subways grouped the Eastern division with the IND 8th Avenue A/C lines, and why car swapping between them became common practice. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Oct 29 20:27:40 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 29 18:55:20 2019. The KK DID make its debut on July 1. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 30 01:48:58 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 29 18:55:20 2019. It WAS in regular service. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 30 01:53:10 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 29 19:07:56 2019. But with the exception of theM, the Eastern has no revenue link with the IND either. Considering that the M car fleet is composed of 4 car NTT units that are inspected at ENY Yd, the normal weekend M service doesn’t go to the IND at all, the M certainly qualifies as a BMT route. My point is that if it runs on the BMT for any of its route then it belongs to the BMT. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 30 01:59:50 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Oct 29 20:15:32 2019. You would still need an AM through early evening service. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 30 01:59:55 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Oct 29 20:15:32 2019. You would still need an AM through early evening service. |
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Posted by Ancient Mariner on Wed Oct 30 08:11:26 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 20 20:42:14 2019. Yeah, me too (as does my wife). Why change? The LL will always be the LL to me. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Oct 30 13:59:50 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by Ancient Mariner on Wed Oct 30 08:11:26 2019. Lousy Louie. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 30 17:10:41 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 20 20:42:14 2019. If the BMT had taken over the new (what became IND) subway lines, the single/double letters would never have been an issue since according to a photo I have of an R-1 mockup, the new lines were intended to continue the BMT’s numbering system that was established starting with the D types. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 31 07:32:58 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 30 17:10:41 2019. I think I saw a schematic drawing of an R1 with a front roll sign showing "34". As the A was the first IND route, I'm guessing that had they gone with the BMT numbering system, today we'd have the 34 running from 207th.I'm guessing there may also have been a large gap in the numbers, as the highest BMT # was 16. I wonder if they would've completely skipped 17-33, or if, even though the 34 was the first new route, subsequent routes might have had lower numbers. It's definitely possible for systems to use lower numbers/letters later- just look at Denver, which established its A and B lines years after the system initially opened. But yet another idea (my own idea for NYC, but derived from the Berlin S-Bahn) would be to create number families, just as we have color families now. For example, taking into account the IRT and BMT as well, we could make the orange routes all 6X (for 6th Avenue)- the D become the 61, the F the 62, the M the 63 and the B the 64. We do the same thing on 8th Ave- and we have the 81, 82, and 83. , the West Side IRT gets numbered 7X, the East Side 4X. The L becomes the 14. What to do with the 7, J, and G is a little trickier. They'd have to get unique numbers. Like the 7 would be the 95- a really catchy, easy-to-remember number for a super-busy line and yet unique- no other 9X #s to be used. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 31 18:40:45 2019, in response to Re: Subway route letter uses, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 31 07:32:58 2019. Yuo must have seen the accompanying schematic to my photo since the car in my photo also had a 34 on the end sign. The IRT prior to the R-12s did not have numbered routes at all but when the first IRT R types were designed, someone at the B of T must have thought it was a good idea to add something into the route sign box instead of eliminating it entirely and centering the destination sign box. |
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