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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Aug 16 07:47:46 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 03:19:43 2019. The point is, they have to be paid for 48 continuous hours, regardless of whether they're working.If you are correct, the railroad has negotiated a collective bargaining agreement that is exceedingly favorable to the employees (assuming there is no adjustment in terms of lower pay per hour because of being paid for sleeping). Now we've gotten to the gist of it. Your whole discussion could have been replaced by "food workers on trains get paid even while off duty, whereas food workers in restaurants do not." |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Aug 16 07:58:03 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 03:19:43 2019. About 10 years ago, dining car employees (chefs, wait staff/attendants) were off-the-clock (unpaid) between 10pm to 5:30am. Don't know how it is today. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 16 10:06:31 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Thu Aug 15 19:07:16 2019. No... LION has rode LD trqaikns even before AMTK skrude things up. Both as Sleeprt pax as well as a coach pax. Him ate in the dining car all of the time and since him can no longer afford to fly sleeper, I appreciate dinner in the diner.LIONS are totally classless and do not walk backwards. It is unbecomming of a LION to walk backwards. Him will only charge forward. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 16 10:13:08 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by AlM on Fri Aug 16 07:47:46 2019. I also suspect that workers on the train get paid at railroad rates rather than at restaurant rates. Much more spensive.LION wood put vending machines in each car. The vending company will restock the sandywitches at service stops, and will not need to ride the train. Even hot meals can be vended from a machine. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Fri Aug 16 13:32:41 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 16 10:13:08 2019. Hmm...sounds like Southern Pacific’s automat cars of the immediate pre-Amtrak years, though SP didn’t put vending machines in every car. I only encountered them once, on the Sunset. Not a pleasant experience for a two-day run.Alan Follett South San Francisco, CA |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Aug 16 15:38:34 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Thu Aug 15 19:07:23 2019. Then there is something historically wrong that is deeper.A) You're talking occupancy, which is fine. But there is a whole food-cost formula matrix that every profitable eatery uses. Unless the hot-dog stand is just doggone lucky, they all go out of business if they don't focus on their cost. Staff is a flexible cost, and not a fixed cost. B) However, in your description, you make it sound like the only restaurant situation where it IS a fixed cost. Maybe it's true. But two things come to mind. B-1) Back in the olden days, before The Court changed everything, employers provided housing. You lived at your department store. You even lived at the Hardware Store you worked at. I even seen the contract where you were obligated to go with the owner to Church every Sunday. Check out those old hotels where the servants quarters get the attic. Rooming is not a new concept. B-2) "at a substantial premium due to overtime and the difficulty of convincing people to work such a demanding job." Then privatize it so they can hire illegals who work in this exact situation. I know a restaurant where the staff works a so-called "split-shift" everyday, for 6 or 7 days a week. The owner wouldn't even give a dude off a few hours so he can upgrade his phone. Maybe Amtrak needs Pepper the Robot. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Aug 16 16:03:12 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 16 10:13:08 2019. It's was tried years ago and failed miserably. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Aug 16 17:33:18 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Alan Follett on Fri Aug 16 13:32:41 2019. Colleges have machines that will make and dispense a pizza now. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Aug 16 17:44:24 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Aug 16 17:33:18 2019. The SP cars were a disgrace. Remember these were "extra fare trains" . |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 16 18:44:50 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 16 10:13:08 2019. On a moving train, the vending machines will break down very quickly. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:07 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Dave on Fri Aug 16 07:58:03 2019. Even so, it's still a gruelingly long shift over multiple days. Whether the expense comes in paying an hourly rate to people who are sleeping or simply paying a premium to get staff willing to work that job, the expense is still much higher than in a stationary restaurant. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:10 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 16 10:13:08 2019. That's what the Southern Pacific did in the 1960s to drive away passengers. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:12 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by AlM on Fri Aug 16 07:47:46 2019. If you are correct, the railroad has negotiated a collective bargaining agreement that is exceedingly favorable to the employees (assuming there is no adjustment in terms of lower pay per hour because of being paid for sleeping).No. See, when a job is demanding enough that few people can or want to do it, you have to pay people more to do it. Basic supply and demand— when people can't or won't do the job, the supply of candidates shrinks and so the price goes up. Now we've gotten to the gist of it. Your whole discussion could have been replaced by "food workers on trains get paid even while off duty, whereas food workers in restaurants do not." No, that's an oversimplification. The issue is that dining cars are subject to certain physical limitations that stationary restaurants are not, with the need to employ a single staff for a grueling multi-day slog being one of them. If you need a single-sentence summary, just replace the period with a comma and use the first half of my previous sentence. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:16 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Aug 16 15:38:34 2019. Then there is something historically wrong that is deeper.It's certainly a tricky problem, but not one any railroad (public or private) has solved. A) You're talking occupancy, which is fine. But there is a whole food-cost formula matrix that every profitable eatery uses. Unless the hot-dog stand is just doggone lucky, they all go out of business if they don't focus on their cost. The trouble is that the limited audience is intrinsic to the situation. The hot dog stand isn't limited to only serving one specific group of customers. You can focus on the cost all you like, but if the physical circumstances under which you operate preclude sufficient volume, you can't make money. Staff is a flexible cost, and not a fixed cost. B) However, in your description, you make it sound like the only restaurant situation where it IS a fixed cost. Maybe it's true. But two things come to mind. The ability to schedule staff for shifts that correspond to mealtimes is greatly compromised for a restaurant that's rolling down the tracks at 79 MPH. While there's a fair amount of leeway to how many people are scheduled and for when, basic physics precludes much of the flexibility that a stationary restaurant gets. If there's any alternative to having the dining car staff ride from Chicago to Emeryville and back, no one has thought of it yet. B-1) Back in the olden days, before The Court changed everything, employers provided housing. You lived at your department store. You even lived at the Hardware Store you worked at. I even seen the contract where you were obligated to go with the owner to Church every Sunday. Check out those old hotels where the servants quarters get the attic. Rooming is not a new concept. The horrific state of work conditions and labour laws prior to the development of unions is hardly relevant to Amtrak's dining car needs. B-2) "at a substantial premium due to overtime and the difficulty of convincing people to work such a demanding job." Then privatize it so they can illegally hire people to work in this exact situation. I know a restaurant where the staff works a so-called "split-shift" everyday, for 6 or 7 days a week. The owner wouldn't even give a dude off a few hours so he can upgrade his phone. I'm, uh, not exactly sure that "just violate labour laws" is a viable solution here. I mean, if you're willing to resort to crime to make a profit, you might as well just staff the dining car with slaves. Maybe Amtrak needs Pepper the Robot. Maybe Congress needs to repeal the law that Amtrak must make a profit on its dining cars specifically. Dining cars have been a loss leader since the start of railroading; the only reason this is an issue is because one specific Congresscritter managed to get a law passed to require Amtrak to make a profit on its dining cars, and he did so specifically because he didn't like Amtrak and wanted to destroy it. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Aug 16 22:57:22 2019, in response to Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Aug 11 15:33:05 2019. My idea was to have restaurants in the towns along the way serve the train. Here's how it'd work:Let's say you're on the train and you're 2 hrs out from a given stop. The coach/sleeper attendant gives you an option of restaurants that will deliver to the train station (or you do this on the Amtrak website) and you place your order. Once the train pulls into station, the coach attendant brings the food on board and you can chow down on your BBQ ribs while your wife has Pad Thai. This way, Amtrak doesn't have to handle food service *period*, and everyone can have whatever their hearts desire food wise. Plus, the political connections of having a bunch of small business owners getting business from the train means more congressional firepower. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 17 02:40:00 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:07 2019. Hourly is probably double that of all but the most expensive stationery eateries. And the health/pension benefits are also greater--can't imagine any of the fast junk outfits paying health/pension/vacation/sick leave--most schedule all workes at less than 30hrs/week in order to get around the ACA, state UICetc costs. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 17 02:43:57 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:12 2019. actually there have beenother solutions to the scheduling problems. When there were multiple trains on a given route, the RR oftenset out the diner at some convenient location and it was picked up in time for breakfast on some other train. While I don't know the exact wage agreements, it was clearly cheaper (the Class 1s were always looking for cost savings) |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 17 02:46:55 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 16 22:11:16 2019. YES! repealing that is a necessary first step. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 17 02:51:49 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Aug 16 22:57:22 2019. a primitiove (pre digital) version of that was common on slow "milk runs" which carried lots of mail and express. The conductor took orders, telegraphed them ahead, and the food was brought onto the train at a station where the schedule allowed time for loading/unloading M E as well as checked baggage. Iexperienced this on Southern Railway in 1962 on a very slow train from Atlanta to DC. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 17 03:16:22 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Aug 16 22:57:22 2019. Means a lot of running time added. The western transcons would each require another train set. 3/4 and 7/8/27/28 do same day turns on the west coast. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Aug 17 03:34:52 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Aug 16 22:57:22 2019. I'm pretty sure Indian Railways does something like that. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 20 15:42:07 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 14 14:10:02 2019. Total Revenue went up after Trump cut the taxes.It will continue to go up as more people are working and paying taxes. The value of our ekonomny will increase as corporations and individuals bring their money back into the country, again due to lower corporate and individual taxes. Today there are more jobs looking for people than there are people looking for jobs. If you cannot find a job you may consider moving to a place that has jobs and where the cost of living is lower. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 20 15:43:53 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by AlM on Wed Aug 14 10:41:29 2019. Actually, it does not reduce taxes... The states will have to pay for the tihings that the fed will no longer fund.And things are better funded at the local level, providing they can keep the graft out of the system. ROPAR |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Aug 20 16:52:18 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 20 15:42:07 2019. People forget the amount of companies that were fleeing Obama. When you lose to Wendy's to Canada, something ain't right. |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Aug 20 18:59:59 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 20 15:42:07 2019. Sorry, but it is not that clear cut."overall tax receipts are down by close to 5%" |
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Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Aug 20 19:00:18 2019, in response to Re: Amtrak changes-LD Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 20 15:42:07 2019. Sorry, but it is not that clear cut."overall tax receipts are down by close to 5%" Tax |
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