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F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by gbs on Wed Jul 10 22:52:38 2019


The MTA press release says the new F express service is "for Brooklyn Residents with Longest Commutes". But apparently the express service will be implemented only between Jay St & Church Av and not further south. How will that relieve pressure on the Brighton Line, which provides express from south Brooklyn? How will it benefit the riders with the longest commutes, namely those coming from further south? Since the service will be peak direction only, why not use the middle track from Kings Hwy to Church Av as well?

This really seems like much ado about almost nothing.

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(1518049)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jul 11 02:23:10 2019, in response to F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Wed Jul 10 22:52:38 2019.

How will that relieve pressure on the Brighton Line, which provides express from south Brooklyn?

I'm not sure that it's meant to.

How will it benefit the riders with the longest commutes, namely those coming from further south?

If you're coming from further south, you now get an express train that's (hopefully) slightly quicker to get you into Manhattan.

Since the service will be peak direction only, why not use the middle track from Kings Hwy to Church Av as well?

Because the section south of Church Avenue doesn't have anywhere near enough ridership to justify bypassing any stations. Ridership at all the stations south of Church combined is apparently just barely high enough to justify a trial of express service for their sake; there certainly aren't enough people boarding south of Kings Highway to justify running express that far down.

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(1518061)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by JRR4 on Thu Jul 11 04:03:53 2019, in response to F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Wed Jul 10 22:52:38 2019.

Am I correct that this will be the only lettered express (diamond) or am I forgetting something? I wonder if they'll have to change all the station signage. That'll cost $$$ for just 4 trains a day.

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(1518062)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by MTA T on Thu Jul 11 04:07:24 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by JRR4 on Thu Jul 11 04:03:53 2019.

Maybe the expresses won't be marked with station signage but with posters instead, similar to what they did with that pilot diamond 4 express service.

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(1518072)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Jul 11 04:45:36 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by MTA T on Thu Jul 11 04:07:24 2019.

Yeah. I would assume so. And they always have those stickers they use. No different than any other change

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(1518090)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 11 07:42:09 2019, in response to F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Wed Jul 10 22:52:38 2019.

Because your idea will mean less service for local stations.

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(1518115)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by JRR4 on Thu Jul 11 12:32:37 2019, in response to F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Wed Jul 10 22:52:38 2019.

Am I correct that this will be the only lettered express (diamond) or am I forgetting something? I wonder if they'll have to change all the station signage. That'll cost $$$ for just 4 trains a day.

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(1518116)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jul 11 13:09:34 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by JRR4 on Thu Jul 11 12:32:37 2019.

Yes, it seems like the 6, 7, and F will be the three lines with advertised diamond variants.

Sometime in the late 00s (give or take) they made the decision to take the diamonds off all other routing variants (except the 6 express and 7 express). At that time, diamond Q was long gone, and so all that was left with regard to diamond signage on trains was the 5 -- as I recall all rush hour 5s got the diamond treatment just to highlight that they were Bronx express, but since that applied to all 5 trains and was purely based on time of day, and people were ordinarily reading the side signage anyway to see if it was for Eastchester or 238th, I suspect the diamond was deemed useless.

With regard to the map alone, however, diamonds were used for anywhere a route went rush hours only (D Concourse express, 5 to Flatbush, M to West End, A to Rockaway Park, the entire Z line, and more). But this had no impact on train signage to my knowledge.

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(1518118)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by 7 Local on Thu Jul 11 13:28:02 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jul 11 13:09:34 2019.

It was also used for the C extension to Bedford Park during rush hours.

The F diamond is easy to do on R160 electronic signs. I doubt there will be any permanent station markings for it though, since it's a limited trial. It's not like the diamond 6 and 7, which run for a good chunk of the day.

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(1518122)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 15:51:16 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by 7 Local on Thu Jul 11 13:28:02 2019.


Outside the train the R160 diamonds will only appear on the front and back of the train. For those who see only the sides, what will the side signs say? "Culver Express", even though most of the Culver line (south of Church) will still be local? The problem with the side signs is they scroll through several displays, so someone wondering if a train will be express will have to wait for the correct display.

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(1518123)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by Westcode44 on Thu Jul 11 16:07:27 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 15:51:16 2019.

and there's always announcements automated and manual.

WE-44

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(1518124)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Jul 11 16:20:28 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 15:51:16 2019.

Smith St Express? (I think that might be the official name of the line north of Church).

F JAMAICA-179 ST
F 63 ST/6 AV LOCAL
F SMITH ST EXP
F CULVER LOCAL

Might be a bit cumbersome. Don't know if there are ADA considerations also. And I didn't even include F QUEENS BLVD EXP.


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(1518136)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 19:54:08 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Jul 11 16:20:28 2019.

The former name for the line was South Brooklyn Line. They now use Culver for it, as they referred to the rehab of the Gowanus viaduct as the "Culver Viaduct," which kind of annoyed me.

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(1518138)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 20:57:32 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 19:54:08 2019.


Was "South Brooklyn" used from the '30s to '50s until the connection was made south of Church Av to the Culver elevated? For years the TA stopped using names like Culver altogether, and many were surprised to see that name suddenly re-appear in the electronic signs of the new-tech trains.

It was strange to call the Gowanus viaduct the Culver viaduct. Surely no one would claim that the G train from Bergen St to Church Av is on the Culver line.

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(1518139)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 21:00:10 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Jul 11 16:20:28 2019.


I thought the same thing, along the lines of "4 Av Express" now used for the D and N. The problem is that when there are too many displays, no one will read all of them and the important one(s) can't show up often enough.

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(1518146)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jul 12 03:02:13 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 21:00:10 2019.

I agree. It's not necessary to show everything the train does. People know that the E & F are the Queens Blvd express, and that the M, R, and W are all local, all the time. For example, the W side signage can consistently be "W ASTORIA-DITMARS" and "W WHITEHALL ST". As for the Bronx-bound 6, the alternatives can be "6 177 St LOCAL", "6 PELHAM EXPRESS" and "6 PELHAM LOCAL". The 7, for which very few trains have alternate terminals, is even easier.

Now, this F express is a different situation- it's only a few trains and it's a new service. This probably will need 2 screens - "F Coney Island" alternating with a flashing "BROOKLYN EXPRESS" as well as a lot of announcements.

Similarly second screens would be needed for some trains running on GOs- but only 1 more screen. For example "R 179 STREET JAMAICA" alternating with "VIA 63 STREET". The M to 96 Street should say "M 96St/2 Ave", alternating with "NO QUEENS SERVICE". Leaving 96th, it can just say "M METROPOLITAN AVE"- with no second screen needed.


While it's true that this might provide slightly less information, it focuses on what people really need to know.

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(1518162)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 12 09:05:11 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Jul 11 16:20:28 2019.

Reminds me of the QJ then J trains when they only referred to "Nassau St." or "Nassau St Local" on their front & side destination signs w/o any mention of Broadway Brooklyn or Jamaica Ave where the line traversed most of its mileage.

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(1518212)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by gbs on Fri Jul 12 23:08:59 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jul 12 03:02:13 2019.


Correct! In fact, the #7 signs should not scroll at all, and the Manhattan-bound trains should not say "Flushing Local" or "Flushing Express" because that make them sound Flushing-bound.

The signs should be static and simply say:

7 Local to 34-Hudson
7 Express to 34-Hudson
7 Local to Main St
7 Local to Mets-Willets
7 Express to Main St

This way the words Local or Express are always on display.

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(1518281)

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Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???

Posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 13 13:00:05 2019, in response to Re: F express - only between Jay & Church???, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jul 11 13:09:34 2019.

I don't think the main subway map ever used diamonds for the Z. I recall most station signage used to show the J and Z in a single brown circle for awhile, before switching to separate circles (but still no diamonds).

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