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| (1509562) | |
flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Baltimorerail on Tue Apr 9 19:57:36 2019 Why is the Flushing isolated from the rest of the IRT? |
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| (1509567) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Apr 9 20:20:21 2019, in response to flushing line isolation, posted by Baltimorerail on Tue Apr 9 19:57:36 2019. It wasn't originally. It was connected to the Second Ave. El, which was connected to the IRT in the Bronx. Still, one wonders why there wasn't a connection to the East or West Side IRT subways. |
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| (1509570) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:22:55 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by italianstallion on Tue Apr 9 20:20:21 2019. Still, one wonders why there wasn't a connection to the East or West Side IRT subways.And also why the 7 is 2 levels lower than the 1/2/3 and the 4/5/6. It would only have needed to be 1 level lower. |
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| (1509573) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 20:35:01 2019, in response to flushing line isolation, posted by Baltimorerail on Tue Apr 9 19:57:36 2019. The Flushing Line wasn’t always isolated from the rest of the IRT. Till 1943, it was connected to the rest of the IRT via the 2 Av El which ran service to both Astoria and Corona but not Flushing proper since wooden cars were not allowed in the Subway at Main St. Somehow, the BMT’s el cars were allowed into Main St but I don’t know what sort of waiver might have been needed. Whenever Flushing cars had to be main shopped, they were sent to the IRT’s 148 St shops via the 2 Av el. After 1940 when the north end of the el was closed. the cars had to be sent to So/Fy to be turned and sent north via 3 Av. After the entire 2 Av el was shut down Flushing cars were main shopped at CIYd and brought there by BMT crews assigned to Corona Yd for that purpose. After BMT service to Flushing was ended in 1949, the BMT crews remained assigned to Corona Yd for the specific purpose of transferring Flushing cars to CIY for heavy maintenance. To this day Flushing Line cars are given heavy maintenance at CIY although I believe that these days miscellaneous crews have to be qualified on all divisions so a dedicated transfer crew is not necessary. I don’t know how it is now since the RCC had been relocated away from Jay St, but when the Command Center originally opened circa 1970, its radios were on BMT frequency and it was administered by the BMT desk along with the Astoria Line. For one pick around 1972, the supervision of the Flushing Line picked as part of the BMT instead of the IRT. |
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| (1509574) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:59:20 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 20:35:01 2019. So if you actually want to move a 7 train to the 1/2/3/4/5/6 for some reason, you have to go through 207th Street Yard or Linden Shops, right? Quite a series of maneuvers in either case. |
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| (1509575) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Apr 9 21:03:02 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 20:35:01 2019. The BMT el cars had steel fireproofing, which permitted them to be used in the subway |
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| (1509576) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 9 21:26:20 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:22:55 2019. AFAIK, the original plans constructing the Grand Central Station was to have the H&M Hudson tubes have their final destination in the space between the 4/5/6 & #7 platforms at Grand Central. |
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| (1509577) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 9 21:29:58 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:59:20 2019. ...and lead cars with two sets of trippers for operation over BMT trackage. |
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| (1509578) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Tue Apr 9 21:50:20 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 20:35:01 2019. Flushing R188 cars are now maintained at 207th Street Yard. They do not contain four (4) tripping devices. A qualified Supervisor(operations) must be on board the transfer to supervise the move. Radio frequency channels will be adjusted accordingly. The crew must be inter divisional qualified.WE-44 |
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| (1509581) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 9 21:57:30 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:59:20 2019. I doubt Linden is used with any regularity given its inconvenient location relative to the part of the BMT that connects to the Flushing Line and the fact that it’s not electrified. |
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| (1509582) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 22:01:00 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:59:20 2019. Linden has no 3rd rail so it rally can’t be used. The only ways cars can be transferred from the Flushing Line ti the mainline is through the BMT to the IND and then to the IRT either at Concourse Yd or 207 Yd. |
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| (1509583) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 22:02:29 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by northshore on Tue Apr 9 21:03:02 2019. I knew there had to be something different. However the iRT composites also had metal fireproofing and the PSC didn’t look kindly on them being used in the subways either. |
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| (1509584) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 22:03:36 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Westcode44 on Tue Apr 9 21:50:20 2019. That’s even a tougher transfer than the old one to CIYd. Why the change? |
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| (1509585) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Tue Apr 9 22:13:46 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 22:03:36 2019. IRT New Tech Cars with(CBTC)equipment and associated parts I presume.WE-44 |
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| (1509586) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Apr 9 22:23:14 2019, in response to flushing line isolation, posted by Baltimorerail on Tue Apr 9 19:57:36 2019. If it weren't a cross between A and B divisions, I have often thought that the 7 should be connected to the L. Now that the 7 goes past 34 St, it's only 20 blocks or so. They should at least have a common terminal even if they can't connect.Apart from that, someone should have thought to make an easier connection to the rest of the IRT when they were wielding wrecking balls like mad. It could have been done at some point, but it was like people who go around chopping down trees without planting any. |
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| (1509589) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 9 22:39:17 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Apr 9 22:23:14 2019. "They should at least have a common terminal even if they can't connect.That would be terrific if the 7 could hook up with the L & make a large loop type service from Canarsie to Flushing. But as long as the Steinway tunnel exists, the Flushing Line will always be strictly an IRT line with their smaller cars. |
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| (1509592) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 10 00:03:26 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 9 21:57:30 2019. Ah, not electrified.It's hard enough to get from Queensboro Plaza to 207th Street. N route to somewhere past DeKalb. Reverse and take the B route to 59th/CC and switch to the A. But yeah, Linden Shops is even worse. N to Lex/59, Reverse, R to Queens Plaza, then reverse and E/A to Linden. |
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| (1509594) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 10 00:47:46 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Westcode44 on Tue Apr 9 22:13:46 2019. But aren't the BMT’s NTTs with CBTC maintained at CIYd? |
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| (1509595) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Apr 10 00:54:34 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 9 22:39:17 2019. While that is true, bringing the two routes together at a joint terminal, somewhere around W 2x, and 1xth Ave. One hopes the extension of the 7 was built to B Division specs. |
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| (1509598) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 10 07:21:15 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 10 00:03:26 2019. The route you describe is how I think the R36WF cars went from the 7 line to 207th for reefing. In late 2003, both before and after the official "last revenue run" of these cars, I'd see pairs of them running Brooklyn-bound on the BMT-Broadway express tracks.The very first time I saw this, I deduced that this was their final trip, to their doom. I don't know this for an absolute FACT, but given where the cars were, and that they were known to be getting junked, this seems logical. At least every time that I saw this, the cars made the trips one pair at a time. |
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| (1509599) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 10 07:26:30 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 9 21:26:20 2019. Sad that that never happened. A truly unified subway system connecting all 5 boros + Yonkers, Mount Vernon, Newark, Jersey City, and Hoboken is what was needed. Imagine a 2-seat, single fare ride from Flushing to Getty Square (run the 1 up there) or a single ride trip from Harlem to Grasmere (run the T via the SAS directly under the bay, with no detour through Brooklyn)?Ah well... |
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| (1509600) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 08:13:39 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 22:01:00 2019. Until the flyover was built at 207th St virtually all IRT moves to 207th St. had to go through Concourse Yard. |
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| (1509601) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 08:17:30 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Westcode44 on Tue Apr 9 21:50:20 2019. are the R-188s still looped in CIYD or is that now done at 207th St. as well. |
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| (1509602) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 08:34:49 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 9 22:02:29 2019. I don't remember exact details, but I read the difference that allowed the BMT el cars to operate into Main St. had something to do with there being more metal reinforcement in parts of, or throughout the frame of the entire car.Can anyone clarify or explain this in more detail? Thanks. |
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| (1509603) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 08:39:48 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 9 21:29:58 2019. On an ERA tour of the Flushing line shops years back, it was explained, again I don't remember the exact details, that on either end of the cars or trainset to be transferred there was either work equipment with trippers on both sides, or special regular revenue cars, equipped with two sets of trippers, for just this purpose. |
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| (1509604) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Apr 10 08:49:51 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 08:39:48 2019. Correct. The trippers are on different sides for each division. |
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| (1509605) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 08:50:52 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 08:39:48 2019. IIRC, all the R-33s had TripCocks on both sides. |
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| (1509606) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Apr 10 09:03:01 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 08:17:30 2019. Corona has a loop track so there's no need to loop the cars elsewhere. |
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| (1509607) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 10 09:36:51 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 08:50:52 2019. IIRC, all the R-33s had TripCocks on both sides. Not all. A number of the R-33 WF had trippers on both sides and were used in transfer moves. There were known as "four trippers". Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1509610) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Wed Apr 10 10:11:17 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 08:34:49 2019. How was it that the Manhattan "gate cars" ran on the Dyre Ave line? They too ran into a tunnel, albeit only a few blocks long. Didn't count, I guess. |
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| (1509611) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Apr 10 11:07:25 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by r17-6599 on Wed Apr 10 10:11:17 2019. As I measure it on Google Maps, the tunnel portion of the Dyre Ave. line (from Paulding Ave. to Mace Ave.) is almost three times as long as the tunnel portion of the Flushing line in Flushing (College Point Ave. to Main St.) - 3800 feet vs. 1310 feet. |
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| (1509612) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 10 11:09:27 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 10 00:03:26 2019. Theoretically: N to 57th, reverse to Q to Lexington, reverse to F to 47-50, reverse to B/D to A.I would think reverse moves are inconvenient enough that they wouldn't do that. With reefing, putting on extra miles isn't an issue. That's why Coney Island is "closer" than 207th. Linden doesn't connect to the E or A. It's on the L and 3. |
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| (1509614) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Dan on Wed Apr 10 11:21:59 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 10 00:03:26 2019. ' N route to somewhere past DeKalb...'9th Avenue would be my guess. |
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| (1509616) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Wed Apr 10 11:44:11 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Apr 10 11:07:25 2019. Wow! Interesting. |
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| (1509617) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 11:44:52 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by VictorM on Wed Apr 10 09:03:01 2019. Thank you. I was not aware that they put in a loop track with the new shop |
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| (1509629) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Apr 10 13:41:36 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 11:44:52 2019. You're welcome. |
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| (1509631) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Apr 10 13:50:19 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Dan on Wed Apr 10 11:21:59 2019. There's crossover between south and northbound express tracks just north of Pacific St, so that's where the reverse is done. |
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| (1509632) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 13:58:00 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Apr 10 11:07:25 2019. just thinking out loud here, but even at 3800 feet, because of its construction, and it was open at both ends, it might not have really been considered a "subway" and still defined as an underpass, albeit a very long one. |
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| (1509634) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 10 15:29:16 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 13:58:00 2019. That would probably be how the Manhattan el cars were able to run through the Anderson Av Tunnel on the 9 Av el and Polo Grounds shuttle. |
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| (1509635) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 10 15:31:22 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 10 11:09:27 2019. The reverse moves on the SAS wouldn’t be a good idea since they would be mainline moves and block the road. |
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| (1509640) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 10 17:33:34 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by italianstallion on Tue Apr 9 20:20:21 2019. Except steel cars like the Lo-V's could not be transferred via the 2nd Avenue el. |
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| (1509642) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Apr 10 18:01:24 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Apr 10 00:54:34 2019. "One hopes the extension of the 7 was built to B Division specs."AFAIK, the 7 extension to Hudson Yds was built to B division specs, which will be the standard spec used for all future subway extensions. |
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| (1509643) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 10 18:04:44 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 10 17:33:34 2019. Except steel cars like the Lo-V's could not be transferred via the 2nd Avenue el. They could and they did. The Second Avenue el was strong enough to hold the Lo-V's. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1509644) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 18:30:26 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 10 15:29:16 2019. yes, good point. |
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| (1509645) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 18:39:06 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 10 18:04:44 2019. In Joe Cunningham's text for that 2nd ave. el in photographs, he states that the 2nd ave. el was used as a testing ROW for new equipment. The earliest H&M steel cars operated on the el* (in revenue service?) for this purpose, as well as early MU experiments, plus the example in the photo of the early (steel?) car with what looked like a motorman's position in the front center as with trolleys.*Neal Wotherspoon once described for me route these cars took to get to the el at the beginning and end of their temporary servie, but I didn't make notes, and do not remember the details of the routing. |
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| (1509647) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Apr 10 18:41:12 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 13:58:00 2019. Also, Main Street was not originally intended to be a permanent terminal. The subway was planned to continue further east, presenting a problem for the wooden El cars. |
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| (1509648) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Apr 10 18:41:13 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 9 20:59:20 2019. I had a suggestion about a possibly lower mileage routing of Flushing trains to the rest of the system. I posted it hear years ago. The idea was shot down & I forgot the reason(s) why so here goes again:Enter BMT at QBP & enter 60 st tunnel, (T/O on each end in radio contact w/eachother) Stop train just beyond the 11th st cut, Make wrong rail reverse move back beyond QP, Switch to IND Express track & go via 6th Ave line to s/o 42nd Bryant Pk From there, switch to N/B track & head to 207. All this to keep 7 trains from going thru Brooklyn during transfer. All moves (usually few & far between) to be done overnight as to keep delays to a minimum. Ok fire away! |
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| (1509649) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 18:42:18 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Wed Apr 10 08:50:52 2019. thanks to you and IRTRedbird, for the clarification re: using revenue cars with four trippers for these transfer moves. |
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| (1509650) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 18:45:03 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Apr 10 18:41:13 2019. and for any non-employee who might somehow end up on one of these transfer moves, it would be one hell of an unofficial fan trip. |
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| (1509655) | |
Re: flushing line isolation |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 10 19:52:59 2019, in response to Re: flushing line isolation, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 10 18:39:06 2019. In Joe Cunningham's text for that 2nd ave. el in photographs, he states that the 2nd ave. el was used as a testing ROW for new equipment. The earliest H&M steel cars operated on the el* (in revenue service?) for this purpose, as well as early MU experiments, plus the example in the photo of the early (steel?) car with what looked like a motorman's position in the front center as with trolleys. The Composite were tested there in revenue service. The H&M Class A cars were tested there as well but without passengers. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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