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| Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes (1506305) | |
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| (1506308) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Mar 8 17:38:18 2019, in response to Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by andy on Fri Mar 8 17:32:53 2019. No. 9-car lengths except Metropolitan. |
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| (1506313) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by andy on Fri Mar 8 17:53:08 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Mar 8 17:38:18 2019. OK thank you. So platforms are 540 feet, correct. But that means 8 car trains of 60 foot cars since they're married pairs. |
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| (1506332) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by zac on Fri Mar 8 20:22:40 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by andy on Fri Mar 8 17:53:08 2019. They are in 4 or 5 car sets. Theoretically a consist of one 4 car and one 5 car could run there but I don't think they ever have. |
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| (1506345) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 8 22:27:00 2019, in response to Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by andy on Fri Mar 8 17:32:53 2019. Originally all BMT station platforms could accommodate eight-car trains of BMT standards, which would have been 536 feet long. |
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| (1506355) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 06:48:19 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 8 22:27:00 2019. The doors on the Standards had the cars with more end overhang. Between that, and 8 more feet for a 9 car train of 60.5' cars, that may be too little leeway at some stations. |
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| (1506381) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 9 11:04:58 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 06:48:19 2019. Yes, the doors on the BMT standards were set further away from the bulkheads. |
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| (1506429) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 9 15:32:23 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by andy on Fri Mar 8 17:53:08 2019. Back when the R-16s ruled the Eastern I often wondered why they weren’t operated in 9 car consists. |
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| (1506431) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Mar 9 15:40:07 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by zac on Fri Mar 8 20:22:40 2019. I'm wondering if they're waiting on 9 car trains until they absolutely have no other choice, because it's something that can be done with little capital costs (new stop markers and zebra boards, extending outdoor platform edges by about 5-10 feet for leeway, extending underground platform edges slightly into the tunnel catwalks as PATH did for 7 car trains). |
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| (1506440) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 9 15:56:10 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Mar 9 15:40:07 2019. You'd think they'd do it just for the money savings (8/9ths as many TOs and conductors).Are we sure that Fulton Street can be lengthened the little bit that would be necessary? |
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| (1506442) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 16:04:06 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Mar 9 15:40:07 2019. I don't think they have thought outside of the box or has it ever occurred to them to run 9 car trains. |
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| (1506444) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 16:08:10 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 9 15:32:23 2019. I think I've told you before. The Sunday night as Christie was going into effect, the usual 6 car consists on the "15", about to be the "JJ", were NINE cars. They were likely clearing out ENY yard and splitting 6 cars trains in half, make them 9 cars, to make room for the import of R27's for the following morning's QJ's. As the R16 runs would extend to Brighton Beach, they needed more equipment. Whether they isolated the last car, I have no idea.I have not come across one human being in 52 years to confirm what I and my parents saw. |
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| (1506453) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 9 17:56:10 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 16:04:06 2019. They were smart enough to combine the M and the V. They know about 9-car trains. That doesn't mean the reason they haven't implemented completely holds water, but they can't not know. |
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| (1506454) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 9 18:13:04 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Mar 9 15:40:07 2019. Two more possible huge obstacles:- Might these be large enough "renovation" projects that the rules would then require each station to be made ADA compatible? - Might there be a huge overhead to each station project, that is, say, the first thing you do beyond changing a light fixture costs $10 million? |
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| (1506502) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 11:07:28 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 16:08:10 2019. Don't feel bad. Not to open another can of worms, but no one has been able to substantiate my claim that there were at least several R-10s with twin round circular R-15 windows in their door leaves. |
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| (1506508) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 10 12:54:35 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by andy on Fri Mar 8 17:53:08 2019. Platform lengths were 535 feet, not 540! |
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| (1506509) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 13:02:15 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 10 12:54:35 2019. Just enough to shoehorn in an eight-car train of BMT standards. |
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| (1506512) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 13:14:02 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 10 12:54:35 2019. 9 car NTT trains won't make it. For all we know, when they rebuilt the 5 Fulton Street stations in the 1980's, they could have cut them a few more feet.On Jamaica Avenue, the trains still stop front justified. The majority of the lead car generally spots ahead of the stairs, yet the rear car stop well clear of the stairs behind it, room for a 9th car. |
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| (1506514) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 13:15:53 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 11:07:28 2019. Side doors ? |
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| (1506515) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 13:23:15 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 13:14:02 2019. The only station that's too short with a lot of expense to fix seems to be Fulton st. If push came to shove, they could:[1] - Only 9 car-ize the M (They would have to do extensive work at Metropolitan ave, but its all outdoors). [2] - Diverted Ms could either turn at Chambers, or they could put up a warning sign at Fulton St saying "9 car train do not stop". |
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| (1506516) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 13:26:44 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 13:23:15 2019. Chambers can handle 9 car train comfortably ?The world won't crack if a diverted train skips Bowery. Can you isolate just one car, or does it have to be the whole set ? |
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| (1506517) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 10 13:27:02 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 9 16:08:10 2019. Dont feel bad.I saw a R46 on the Broadway El. It rode right past me at Myrtle ave.. Also saw one on the Myrtle El near Wyckoff...had a S special marker on its rollsign. |
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| (1506518) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 10 13:33:35 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 8 22:27:00 2019. Well, not exactly originally. There were platform extensions over the years once Standards were introduced. One place where you could especially see this was on the Brighton Line, where the original 1907 platforms were concrete. These were lengthened and widened with wood, so you could see the original platform contours.Brighton-Franklin platforms were never more than six cars of B-types. |
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| (1506530) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 14:53:36 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 13:23:15 2019. The L needs it more than the M. A diverted train could always have the announcement that the rear car won't open at Fulton St.But again, would these projects make ADA compliance mandatory? |
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| (1506533) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Mar 10 15:05:57 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 11:07:28 2019. There were, including a green R10. Not unusual to cannibalize other cars to get parts for the survivors. Some prominent parts, some not so much. |
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| (1506534) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Mar 10 15:08:31 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 14:53:36 2019. C/R working in the middle of the train has no way to prevent one car from opening w/o physically going back there to prevent it. |
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| (1506536) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Mar 10 15:20:48 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 10 13:27:02 2019. I've definitely seen a pic of an R46 consist just south (geographically) of Fresh Pond Road.I realize this may not be the exact run you saw, especially, going past Myrtle. I'm sure other really oddball consists and moves have occurred as well... |
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| (1506537) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:21:21 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 14:53:36 2019. The L only needs it because they can't get more trains with the CBTC equipment. If we are to believe the hype about CBTC they should be able to run more trains. |
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| (1506538) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sun Mar 10 15:21:33 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Mar 10 15:05:57 2019. Only two R-10's, #3047 and #3141, each had the storm door with the R-16 type circular front window at one end of their respective cars. There is no real claim with background facts. including any photos or slides to surface if any R-10's had the R-11/15 type side doors installed as parts replacement to this day. R-10 #3138 and R-14 #5952 had the side vents on their side doors each installed as an experiment.-William A. Padron ["a.c.f."] |
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| (1506539) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 15:22:02 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Mar 10 15:08:31 2019. On the LIRR M-1's, not sure of subsequent cars, the engineer could suppress the opening of the first set of doors in case he over-shoots the platform. |
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| (1506540) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:24:16 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 15:22:02 2019. So perhaps a (9) marker in the tunnel with the T/O locking out the first car?I wonder if the NTTs could be modified to dynamically cut out an arbitrary car... like, conductor or T/O could tap on the car in the diagram on the screen and disable the doors. The disabling could occur automatically with the station announcement, since that (usually) knows what station the train is located at... |
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| (1506542) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 15:35:38 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Mar 10 15:20:48 2019. I have heard that some R44's and/or R46's have gone to ENY for re-wiring work as they did such a task very well, and had time to do it (while the R16's were falling apart). |
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| (1506543) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 15:37:08 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:24:16 2019. Or simply isolate the first and last set of doors in a 9 car consist and place a sticker on them. |
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| (1506544) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 15:37:46 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:21:21 2019. CBTC turned out to be a pig in a poke. |
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| (1506548) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:47:25 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 10 15:37:08 2019. The isolated doorways would also make for good additional standing locations. |
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| (1506549) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 15:56:47 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:21:21 2019. But still cheaper to run 8 9-car trains than 9 8-car trains. And eventually they will run out of the added tph capacity that CBTC provides. |
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| (1506550) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 15:58:03 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:24:16 2019. And in any case this would only be in case of a diversion, when everything is screwed up to begin with. |
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Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 10 17:36:03 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 15:56:47 2019. eventually they will run out of the added tph capacity that CBTC provides.CBTC does not provide any additional tph capacity. |
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| (1506570) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 10 17:41:54 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 10 15:24:16 2019. I wonder if the NTTs could be modified to dynamically cut out an arbitrary car... like, conductor or T/O could tap on the car in the diagram on the screen and disable the doors.No. The LON Works "fly by wire" used on the NTT's implemented the previous cab hard wired signals. This means that the NTT would provide no more flexibility from the cab than what it replaced. |
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| (1506571) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 17:50:14 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 10 17:36:03 2019. Um. Maybe it just gave them courage. But they are running more trains now than they did previously on the L. |
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Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 10 18:25:53 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 17:50:14 2019. they are running more trains now than they did previously on the L.That depends on one's point of reference. They are currently operating a maximum of 20 tph. From 1949 (and probably before) until the 1970's financial crisis they were operating 24 tph. After building additional substations, they promise a maximum of 22 tph. |
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Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 18:51:43 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 10 18:25:53 2019. Enough already about the good old days. Safety rules were different then. They won't take those chances now. Robert Ray, Layton Gibson and tort law have killed the old days.The current appropriate point of reference is what they could operate in 2010. |
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| (1506587) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Mar 10 19:15:26 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 11:07:28 2019. I also rode an R10 on the K in September 1987 but people said I must've been mistaken. |
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| (1506588) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 19:22:55 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 11:07:28 2019. I don’t recall hearing that from you but that does make a bit of sense if the TA wanted to expeditiously transfer cars between locations. When I first became a T/D in 1970, I would often get the midnight at 207 St and Lefferts was always 20 cars over for Mon AM service. At the time the TA was operating 10 car trains of R-10s on the A all night long without cutting. What I would do is cut 4 trains to 5 cars and send those 4 trains down to lefferts where the would be added back up to 10s and full length 10 car trains would be put in al Lefferts till the car service was balanced. The reason for the discrepancy was that during the times that trains were cut, the car service was balanced on the timetable by indicating various train lengths to be operated. while the number of S/B vs N/B trips didn’t balance due to the cutting, the car service always would. When the TA stopped overnight cutting, one end of the line or the other would be over so in the case I mentioned at 205 St, it was necessary to make unscheduled cuts and adds rather than transfer light train between terminals. It wasn’t too long after that the timetables were rewritten in such a way that there were equal numbers of S/B and N/B trips so that the service would balance regardless of train lengths. |
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| (1506589) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 19:38:18 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by William A. Padron on Sun Mar 10 15:21:33 2019. It’s interesting that the MTA didn’t seem to worry about mismatched windows on the R-10s when back in the 1960s, the TA went out of its way to avoid a similar situation when repairing R-27 8217. 8217 lost a battle with a BMT steel in CIYd and the good end of R-16 6494 which had been wrecked at Broad St a few years earlier was used to repair it. The TA somehow found an excess bulkhead door from an R-10 which was a close to perfect match and installed it on 8217. Oddly enough the TA also used a surplus R-10 (or possibly R-9 since those were similar) cab door instead of the good cab door from 6494. It may be possible that the good cab door from 6494 got used for another repair. I don’t know about the 5952, but in addition to the louvered side doors, 3138 also received a slight modification to the control system. The bypass button was moved away from beneath the gauge to the front panel just to the right of the vision glass above the gauge. In normal operation even with M/M indication working properly, the bypass button can be depressed while the train is moving without having any effect on the train operation. On 3138, if the M/M depressed the bypass button with the controller in an operating position power would cut and the control system would reaccelerate from zero. If the M/M were to remove his finger from the bypass button after the train had accelerated in this mode. power would again drop and the acceleration would start all over again in the normal mode. |
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| (1506590) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 19:39:40 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Mar 10 19:15:26 2019. If you’re talking about the KK that replaced that AA that would probably not be too unusual. |
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| (1506591) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 19:42:38 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Mar 9 15:40:07 2019. I suspect that if the TA can’t run 9 car trains on the platforms as is, it would make no sense to spend money to extend the platforms just a few feet rather than allot the funds to so a full extension to 600 ft. |
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| (1506593) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 10 19:51:50 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 19:42:38 2019. ???If, hypothetically, you can accommodate 9-car trains for a tenth of the cost of 10 car trains, why not do it? |
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| (1506595) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 19:56:15 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 10 13:02:15 2019. With a 2 1/2 ft cushion at either end 9 X 60 footers would also shoehorn in the stations as well. |
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| (1506597) | |
Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 10 20:12:47 2019, in response to Re: Platform Lengths - BMT Eastern Divisiion routes, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 10 13:33:35 2019. DeKalb is another example of BMT platform extensions. The original S/E of Dekalb was about where the current S/E is now. Because the original switches were at the N/E the only place top extend the platforms was at the S/E partially on a curve. When the entire Dekalb complex was realigned in the late 1950s/early 1960s, switches were placed at the S/E of the station and the platforms extended north eventually so far that the Myrtle Av (Gold St) station was rendered redundant and eventually closed. The abandoned S/E platform extension can be seen from passing trains if you look carefully enough. |
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