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Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019 It was a fun xmas / new years with the gkids, who loved telling of their adventures and discoveries in the city since the summer while living there while their mom is doing her masters at Columbia. Especially exciting for the older 5 year old is any trip involving the noisy smelly subway, and they always were eager to tell of various subway trips, even though the younger brother was scared sometimes of the crowds. Smartie Ц the older one Ц has figured out that each line only runs under certain streets and stops at particular stations (unless its an express train that runs through some stations at high speed Ц thatТs AWSOME!), but wondered why some stations like Times Square have trains stopping at different platforms, and you need to make long walks if you need to change trains Ц especially between lettered and numbered lines. I explained that all these lines were built many years ago by 2 different companies and the city, who competed against each other for passengers. The competition also made the companiesТ trains incompatible with each other so they needed their own station platforms. Eventually the city took ownership of the other lines when the other companies went bankrupt. He thought that made some sense and wandered off A while later, I heard УPop-Pop? Why ЕФ which is always a fun way to start a brain teaser. Why didnТt the city fix the stations so any train stopping there could use the same platform? I explained that numbered trains were narrower than lettered trains, so a platform Сjust rightТ for a numbered train wouldnТt fit a larger lettered train. He thought about it, it made sense too, so he wandered off again. This got me wondering if there were any subway stations that were designed to allow different sized trains to share a platform, with the narrower trains using one side of the platform, and the wider trains using the other side. Thinking of cities that only have 2 sizes of cars, the first one that came to mind was the Market St subway in S.F. That has the BART and Muni trains running on separate levels, so you can transfer between the two by using the common mezzanine Ц just not across the platform. Which lead to my next thought. When the MTA is building future subway lines, will it be possible to build a station using a Сcommon platformТ so that A-DivТn lines use one side of the platform, and B-DivТn trains use the other? Obviously not where lines cross over/under each other, but it might be possible where a new line runs parallel to an existing line on the same street for a few blocks.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Kevin from Midwood* on Sun Jan 13 23:20:07 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* Queensboro Plaza?
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser* on Mon Jan 14 00:23:51 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* Queesnboro Plaza. IRT narrow width 7 trains on one side, BMT width N trains on the other. Allows across the platform transfers. Also, the upper level has a diamond crossover at the east end. The only place an interchange of equipment can happen. IRT 7 trains use it only in maintenance mode to go to/from Coney Island shops.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Mon Jan 14 01:00:39 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* how nice they are getting the subway indoctrination.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 14 01:34:05 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* Back when BMT subway and el trains shared the same lines like the Myrtle el with the Myrtle/Chambers subway trains and Culver and West End el shuttles sharing trackage and platforms with subway trains, that was done quite often. Of course it was el cars running on lines with subway clearances so the C/Rs on the el cars which were gated were there ot insure passengers didnТt fall through the gaps. On those lines where there was less passenger traffic than in mid Manhattan, it wasnТt that difficult, but in Manhattan with its heavy ridership, it would be hazardous to have large numbers of passengers attempting to jump the gap to board an IRT train berthed at a BMT/IND platform.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Express Rider* on Mon Jan 14 02:15:53 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 14 01:34:05 2019.* Which brings me to another question I've wanted to ask, but haven't gotten around to posting. Namely, on vintage pictures of street level BMT entrances, including one I found from the NY Historical Society from 1929, the BMT's green enamel signs include the southern div. lines Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, and Fourth Avenue, but no Culver line. I'm wondering why? Is it because the Culver was originally an elevated route, with its later el built by Andrew Culver for elevated train use at first, and only later served by BMT subway trains? Whereas, the Brighton, Sea Beach, and West End lines, were rebuilt exclusively for subway use under the Dual Contracts? (I'm well aware/admitting that not all the details in the above paragraph are "completely" correct! heh! - but thanks for any info you can give.)
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Jan 14 07:39:52 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* I assume that Ashmont on Boston's Red Line would still qualify. It used to be a cross platform transfer between high level trains to/from Harvard and trolley's to/from Mattapan. In the past there were similar cross platform transfers at Sullivan the Maverick Sq stations. There were also cross platfrom transfers at Boyleston St, Park St, Scollay Sq, and Haymarket Sq, when the Washington St El was routed through the subway during the early years of the 20th Century.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Dan* on Mon Jan 14 10:12:58 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jan 14 02:15:53 2019.* Maybe only the street entrances in Brooklyn noted the Culver line. At DeKalb Avenue up until at least 1986 you could make out the blue(?) 'Culver' in those incoming train indicators over the southbound platforms. Were the indicators ever removed?
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by ro_jo* on Mon Jan 14 10:46:46 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* There's somewhat of a cross-platform transfer between CalTrain and BART at Milbrae. Low-level platform for the CalTrain, to High-level platform for the BART, and there are turnstiles between the two, but it's still pretty seamless.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Mon Jan 14 11:06:35 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* An easy fix for trains running on the same track would be gantlet tracks to bring the A Div equipment closer to the platform.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by LA Scott* on Mon Jan 14 11:35:02 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by ro_jo on Mon Jan 14 10:46:46 2019.* Similar to this, Newark Penn has two platforms shared by NJT/Amtrak and PATH, with turnstiles.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by jailhousedoc* on Mon Jan 14 11:37:31 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 14 11:06:35 2019.* the only fly in that ointment would be the location of the third rail for the narrower cars.....
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Mon Jan 14 14:33:26 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Dan on Mon Jan 14 10:12:58 2019.* I remember them well!
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Mon Jan 14 16:22:11 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Jan 14 11:37:31 2019.* What problem.... put the IRT third rail against the platform. Put the BMT third rail on the outside. ROAR
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 14 16:41:30 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Dan on Mon Jan 14 10:12:58 2019.* I donТt recall seeing any УCulverФ indicators at Dekalb after the reconstruction since by the time the interlocking was completed the Culver was cut back to a full time shuttle Ditmas to 9 Ave. I worked dekalb both as a Tw.M and a T/D and there were no traces of any Culver indicators whatsoever. I do recall the Culver indicators at 36 St S/B however since they were kept long after theCulver became a shuttle. While prior to the construction of the Nassau St Line the Culver was a branch of the 5 Av el, The structure over McDonald Av was built to dual contract specs from the start.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 14 16:51:08 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 14 11:06:35 2019.* That was the issue with joint operation on the Flushing and Astoria lines and since neither company wanted to pay for gantlet track, it never got done.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Express Rider* on Mon Jan 14 17:15:08 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Dan on Mon Jan 14 10:12:58 2019.* I could only think that maybe since it was a originally a branch of the 5th ave el and that, though subway trains began using the Culver structure, for some reason the BMT (after the Municiple Railway porcelaine signs) still considered to be an elevated service, even though subway trains used it and ran through to Manhattan. It just doesn't make sense, that Culver would not have been included on those porcelaine entrance panels.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Asgard* on Mon Jan 14 18:54:31 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* "This got me wondering if there were any subway stations that were designed to allow different sized trains to share a platform, with the narrower trains using one side of the platform, and the wider trains using the other side." In London, the Metropolitan and District lines (subsurface) have cross-platform interchanges with the Jubilee and Piccadilly lines (tube).
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by randyo* on Tue Jan 15 00:11:19 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jan 14 17:15:08 2019.* Until the IND took over the Culver in 1954, the Culver Line never went past the financial district in lower Manhattan so itТs possible that since the Culver never operated up Bway, that the Bway stations didnТt show it. It was probably displayed on the subway entrances at Chambers, Fulton and Broad.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Express Rider* on Tue Jan 15 01:49:34 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 15 00:11:19 2019.* Your explanation sounds very plausible, thanks for taking the time to answer. I'll have to try and find pictures of those stations' street entrances. And yes I forgot about the Culver's routing* - wasn't it the Culver that went into Manhattan, operated around the loop and returned to Brooklyn? *smacking forehead (too much to remember - brain cells must filed it away somewhere way down in its "back office" area). Probably read about it in a David Rogoff Bulletin article. And now I remember the Culver's route was explained to me, years back, by Neil Wotherspoon after a NY Div. meeting.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by 3-9* on Tue Jan 15 14:46:18 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* Not a subway station, but Newark Penn Station does this, between PATH and the railroads.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Tue Jan 15 15:03:01 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.*
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by JAFO* on Fri Jan 18 23:27:48 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 15 15:03:01 2019.* The replies have led me to think of another scenario Should a future extension (such as the Utica in Brooklyn or the 3rd Ave in da Bronx ) be built as a 4-track extension where tracks 1 & 2 are used by DivТn-B trains and tracks 3 & 4 are used by DivТn-A fleet, although the tunnels should be built to DivТn-B dimensions? The platform edges would be correctly wider or narrower for the fleet using the track. The local and express stations would be laid out as weТre used to where an express station could be 4 tracks and 2 island platforms, but the trunk lines connected to3 the extension would serve different areas of the city. DivТn-B trains run express on the extension, and DivТn-A trains are local.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Avid Reader* on Sat Jan 19 10:37:53 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Fri Jan 18 23:27:48 2019.* Dump the "A DIV" size and capture current ones for "B DIV" where possible connections can be made and extent all platforms to 660 ft. To have tracks that are unsuitable for all service is plane stupid. Start with swapping the Astoria and Flushing lines. Unpack the Flushing line with larger cars and consider it to go to Newlots Ave.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Andrew Saucci* on Sat Jan 19 11:30:05 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* Keep that kid away from an MTA public hearing; it would prove embarrassing-- to the MTA.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by K. Trout* on Sat Jan 19 13:33:12 2019, in response to Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by JAFO on Sun Jan 13 22:09:21 2019.* A bit late to do it now, since it's not possible with the track elevation - but it would have been cool if the BMT 7 Av station was built with a cross-platform transfer to the IRT.
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by randyo* on Sat Jan 19 16:33:55 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Jan 19 10:37:53 2019.* The track configuration at Qnsbro Plz would make swapping the Flushing and Astoria lines pretty much impossible,
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by JAFO* on Sun Jan 20 23:09:13 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Jan 19 10:37:53 2019.* running the wider fleet on a-div'n lines may be possible on the elevated sections with some changes to the tracks and nearby equipment, but it is a lot harder to widen the a-div'n tunnels to handle the wider cars. otherwise it would have been done decades ago in this case, 6" does make a difference
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Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е
Posted by Avid Reader* on Mon Jan 21 10:52:26 2019, in response to Re: Pop-Pop? Why Е, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 19 16:33:55 2019.* If each line were to be assigned to its own level it would work. Yes, the across platform transfer would then be gone, and transfers would necessitate changing levels, similar to the W.4th station of the IND between 8th Ave and 6th Ave trains. But consider the capacity gain. If 9 sixty ft. cars replaced 11 fifty ft. would gain 3 doors for faster loading and unloading. Consider the gain if platforms were to be lengthened to accommodate a 10 sixty ft. cars. WOW!!!!
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