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| IRT Elevated Line numbers (1498981) | |
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| (1498981) | |
IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 5 23:37:51 2019 I came across the Tracks of New York book, and the routes are numbered (Pg. 3) solely and purely for reference within the book, and for the purpose of making sense of the maps:https://archive.org/details/tracksofnewyork03kahn/page/n1 But did the IRT/Manhattan Railway ever number (either externally or internally) the elevated routes in Manhattan? Was there ever a plan to eventually number them? Or was it just 3rd Avenue express, 3rd Avenue local, etc.? All I know is whatever was left of the 3rd Avenue line in the Bronx became the 8, the Dyre Shuttle that came later got 9. Of course, there is the BMT and the numbered 1-16. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 6 03:13:25 2019, in response to IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 5 23:37:51 2019. Actually, the original 8 was intended for use on the Astoria Line if the iRTY had retained use of. it. The 9 was always the Dyre shuttle number and was used as long ago as the late 1950s when the 7 Av Exp (#2) was the main Dyre service. If the ta had any sense (?) they could have simply painted out the word “Astoria” that was under the number 8 and diplayed the 8 on the R-12s and 14s that ran there. |
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| (1499019) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 6 10:40:15 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 6 03:13:25 2019. I don't think the MTA was terribly interested in properly signing els that they wanted to kill. How many Q types were signed for the MJ ? |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Dan on Sun Jan 6 15:16:30 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 6 10:40:15 2019. 'MJ' never appeared on any equipment, but the question does come up about 'MJ' signage at stations along the Myrtle. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 6 16:09:09 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Dan on Sun Jan 6 15:16:30 2019. They may have stuck a disc on a chain, but that's it. |
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| (1499065) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 6 16:24:26 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 6 16:09:09 2019. I never even saw that. In fact when Chrystie went into effect, the LL, and M lines didn’t even display metal discs on the steels. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 6 16:34:46 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 6 16:24:26 2019. The LL and M were pretty much unaffected by Chrystie to start with, so it was business as usual with the Standards."15" becoming "QJ" or blank route sign was the only noticeable difference unless there was the unusual appearance of a R16. "10" became "M", "16" became "LL", "14" became rush hour flavor of "JJ" on the maps and station signs, but nobody noticed. (Nobody knew what the hell RJ was or when it ran). |
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| (1499084) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 6 17:54:42 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 6 16:34:46 2019. Since the Lonesome Larry was unto itself (except for a few Broadway-Brooklyn locals that ran to Rockaway Parkway during rush hours), the BMT standards didn't need additional signs other than the "14th St. L'c'l" markings on their sides. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jan 6 18:02:36 2019, in response to IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 5 23:37:51 2019. The Manhattan Elevated railway never had number/letter routes. This included the time when they were leased by the IRT from 1903-1940. |
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| (1499089) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 6 18:34:55 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 6 17:54:42 2019. One exception shown here. A BMT Standard outfitted with a "Worlds Fair Train Connection" sign with a jurryrigged electric light. BMT trains ended at QBP connecting with Flushing trains to the Fair
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Jan 6 18:43:53 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 6 17:54:42 2019. Well, those standards that ran on other lines, like Astoria, could've used front-end signs and line-number signs. |
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| (1499105) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Jan 6 20:40:27 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 6 18:34:55 2019. I've always like this photo. If any of these signs still exist, they are stored away deep in an attic, or basement and probably would not be found, until relatives discover it, and the probably tossed, it's history not being realized. :( |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Sun Jan 6 23:41:18 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jan 6 18:02:36 2019. When were letter/number designations introduced on the subways and the elevateds of the BMT and IRT? Was it when the City built the IND? |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 7 14:56:13 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by GojiMet86 on Sun Jan 6 23:41:18 2019. In the mid-1920's, when the Triplexes entered service. |
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| (1499199) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Jan 7 17:43:01 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by GojiMet86 on Sun Jan 6 23:41:18 2019. When were letter/number designations introduced on the subways and the elevateds of the BMT and IRT? Was it when the City built the IND? IRT route numbers were probably not assigned until 1948 when the R-12's were being built. The BMT route numbers were definitely assigned by 1921 when the first of the Triplexes arrived. It replaced an earlier numbering system which had been used for internal purposes only. The new system remained in use in part right up to November 1967. The 1939 BMT issued map lists the numbers for each route. However the subsequent maps issued by the NYC Board of Transportation do not. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 7 19:34:13 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 7 14:56:13 2019. The BMT was the first to utilize route numbers starting with the D types and ending with the Multis. For some reason, the Bluebirds had no provision for route numbers even though they were the newest prewar BMT cars. What eventually became the IND routes were also supposed to have numbers continuing from the BMT’s numbering system since by the time construction actually started on the IND’s line, the city administration was no longer as passionate about ruining the BMT as it was under Hylan. In fact, the city offered the new lines to the BMT, but the company refused to operate them at the current 5 cent fare. I have a photo of an R-1 mockup that shows a high number in the route box which seems to indicate that the new lines would be operated by the BMT. The mockup seems to have been done during the early design stages since the door controls look more like the button boxed of an IRT Lo-V rather than the caps and triggers thy eventually were equipped with. Who developed the cap and trigger door control system and why has always been a mystery to me since The Lo-Vs had control boxes with opening and closing buttons and the D types and C type el cars had externally mounted “faucet handle” door controls. The most sensible thing the the B of T came up with was the single letter/double letter scheme for delineating local and express services on a given line and unfortunately the MTA loused that up by eliminating double letters. Also, the BMT had no objection to having both the local and express services on a given line carry the same number so that for example, bit the Brighton Lcl and Brighton Exp carried the number 1. If the MTA were to follow that example, then there would be both an A local and an A express instead of the 8 Av Lcl using the letter C. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 7 20:25:37 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Express Rider on Sun Jan 6 20:40:27 2019. Sadly, that's probably the case. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Jan 8 01:40:46 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 7 20:25:37 2019. Then this will be my "to do" project going forward - ask around any old timers, or ask those who know old timers if these folks were able to save any.I know the transit museum founder acquired various pieces of vintage material over the years. |
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| (1499252) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Jan 8 02:49:07 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Jan 7 17:43:01 2019. Did the BOT continue to issue separate pocket maps for each division only. post-unification, until the 1948 edition Hagstrom map?At nycsubway.org there is a 1940 post-unification BOT map for the BMT Div. routes only in the earlier B.M.T. style. There is no 5th ave. el of course, and a blank space for the Fulton St. el west of Rockaway Ave. with only little a square message box with arrows to indicate "FREE TRANSFER TO AND FROM FULTON STREET SUBWAY IND, DIVISION" from the BMT Div. at Franklin Ave. and Rockaway Ave. On one of the arnine's I saw an IND only post 1940 map that shows the 6th ave. line. So, was this also available as a pocket map, as well as a BOT edition for an IRT Div. map, I.R.T. style, without the 6th, 9th, & 2nd ave. el (north of 59th st.)? |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Jan 8 08:37:04 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Express Rider on Tue Jan 8 02:49:07 2019. I don't know about the pocket maps. The large map used on subway cars was the same for all three divisions except that the home divisions was somewhat larger. That is if I remember correctly. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1499268) | |
Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Jan 8 09:31:22 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Jan 8 08:37:04 2019. I've seen those maps, some were originally posted in the cars at the transit museum when I was there, for maybe the second time in 1988.They were, IIRC Hagstrom style (or actual Hagstroms?), with as you said, the home division routes being somewhat thicker, and the other two divisions with thin lines, showing only their express stops or transfers(?). Those may have been in the cars until 1958(?) when the modern TA map (design by Salomon [sp]) was brought out - with IRT black, BMT green, IND red, with London style ticks for each station (and the street they were on below the station's name in parentheses w/smaller type). That BMT style post 1940 map was also in the spiral bound collection of repro. transit maps - don't remember the author/editor - he was at a NY Div meeting and told me that pre-1940 IND pocket maps were impossible to find for some reason. There must have been severaal versions, each time new extensions were opened. So, if there's an IRT BOT map, or pocket maps for all 3 divisions 19040-48 that's another mystery to be solved... PS - I wonder if the Hagstrom car maps with the thicker lines for the home divison were brought out before or after the IND recaptured the Culver line. It would be interesting if there were two variations of the division maps, pre and post IND Culver takeover. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 8 09:38:19 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Sun Jan 6 18:43:53 2019. When the BMT was assigned letters, the pre-war BMT equipment was already living on borrowed time. The BMT never committed to it's line number system the way the IND did to it's letters. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 8 13:08:14 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Jan 7 17:43:01 2019. In Astoria, the BMT numbers were useless. Most cars were Standards, with no numbers anywhere. No sign at all in front, no numbers on the side signs. When a rare Triplex showed up with numbers, I was amazed. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 8 13:18:51 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 8 09:38:19 2019. This is true. There were no line numbers shown at any station entrances or platforms. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 8 17:00:22 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Express Rider on Tue Jan 8 09:31:22 2019. Some of the all division Hagstrom maps displayed throughout the system were both out of date and ahead of their time at the same time. One of the maps circa 1946 shows the 3 Av El to Freeman St and the Court St IND shuttle as well as the IND operating vis the Culver Line with a sticker in the lower corner of the map stating that the Court St shuttle is not in operation, 3 Av el service tp Freeman St has been discontinued and the Culver Line is under temporary BMT operation between Ditmas Av and Coney island. Another quirk about the Hagstrom maps was that while most el lines that shared trackage with subway lines showed the thin black el line in the middle of the colored subway line, the Fulton St el was shown only as an el line even though the 14 St/Fulton subway service operated during rush hours to Lefferts. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 8 17:32:30 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 8 13:08:14 2019. Don’t forget the R-9s when they showed up on the 4 Av Lcl. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 8 20:07:41 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 8 13:08:14 2019. Heres an amazing shot of an Astoria bound Triplex. From memory as a kid on his Schwinn bike train watching from Northern Blvd & 31st St., Triplexs' weren't all that rare going to Astoria.
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 11:41:41 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 8 20:07:41 2019. Nice shot. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Jan 9 11:55:32 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 8 20:07:41 2019. The Flushing line was 'our' train when I was growing up, and my family rarely transferred at Queensboro Plaza to the BMT - unless we were going to Central Park or Bloomingdales. Mostly I remember ogling the trains as they curved around to meet the arriving IRT train at QBP.So my experience with the Standards and Triplexes was rather limited. I always enjoyed my occasional rides on the BMT because the cars were more spacious than the IRT and had interesting features(I liked the newer trains on the Flushing line, however). Although I was too young to differentiate between the kinds of rolling stock, what impressed me at the time was that some of the BMT trains had a passageway between cars - the Triplexes, of course - and that some of them had a little 'private' seating area at the end of the car - the Standards. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 15:06:46 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Jan 9 11:55:32 2019. Here's one more Triplex at QBP. This one looks in pretty rough shape & probably close to retirement. Notice the blue arrow on the canopy pointing twoards Flushing trains for the Worlds Fair which would make this at least a springtime 1964 shot, based on how the folks on the platform are dressed.
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 15:12:51 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 15:06:46 2019. Must've been some kind of shuttle if it's only going to QP. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 9 16:30:34 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 15:12:51 2019. Not necessarily. During AM rush hours certain N/B West End trains terminated at Qnsbro Plaza and laid up in the middle for PM service. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 17:06:06 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 9 16:30:34 2019. This pic shows the southbound end of the train. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Lou from Middletown NY on Wed Jan 9 17:21:01 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 8 13:18:51 2019. Not even on the IND, where the trains actually had the identifyong route letters and routings displayed. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 18:13:47 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 9 16:30:34 2019. Is there a loop track at Coney Island Yd?This is a stretch, but if so, maybe the train was looped and the first car became the last and the sign wasn't changed?? |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 18:41:55 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 9 16:30:34 2019. Triplex on the move as a rush hr put in from middle track on the Astoria line. New concrete platforms indicate a scene from the early 60s. TA brass had to know that these cars were on their way out, thus no add on sealed beams.
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 19:11:23 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 18:41:55 2019. Ah, the Mojud sign. Brings back memories. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 19:16:27 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 19:11:23 2019. As an aside...what/who was Mojud?? |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jan 10 11:53:52 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 19:16:27 2019. I believe it was a hosiery or bra factory. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 00:13:28 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 9 17:06:06 2019. Even so, if the train were a put in from CIYd and had been swung around the loop it might have kept the Qns Plz destination on the rear end and it would be of no consequence until the train changed ends and then it would be up to the M/M the set it to the proper reading. |
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Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 00:14:17 2019, in response to Re: IRT Elevated Line numbers, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 9 18:13:47 2019. You are correct and I just mentioned that in my post. |
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