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This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018

I just came back from Spain where I rode AVE from Madrid to Seville and the regional service from Madrid to Toledo and back. I also noticed something while taking the train to Barcelona airport from the city. On a previous trip, I rode the Eurostar from London to Paris.

Long story still long: I noticed that when you get just outside the city limits, the land use changes almost immediately to low density farming. This was even the case on the train to the airport in Barcelona. It’s this sort of cheap land between dense cities that allows HSR ROWs to be developed. It’s something that was probably available in the US back when the interstates were being developed, but is now long gone. There’s essentially no room for HSR in America in the very corridors where it would be most successful.

Discuss.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by VictorM on Mon Oct 8 17:32:52 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

I agree. I've never been to Europe, but looking at HSR cab view videos, I'm amazed how sparsely populated it is once you get outside the cities. No miles and miles of suburbs and exurbs we have here in the U.S.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 17:41:38 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

Why wouldn't it be feasible to further upgrade the existing NEC, to cite one well-worn example? An increase from 150 mph to 186 mph (like the TGV system started with) shouldn't be an insoluble problem.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Oct 8 17:44:55 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 17:41:38 2018.

psst the NEC is not straight and has some severe restrictions .


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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Oct 8 17:44:55 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 17:41:38 2018.

psst the NEC is not straight and has some severe restrictions .


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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Oct 8 18:11:14 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Oct 8 17:44:55 2018.

Tilt the tracks like a rollercoaster, then charge extra for the excitement. Try not to stop on those curves ;-)

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 18:20:31 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Oct 8 17:44:55 2018.

I know. But that shouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle. When I rode Eurostar from England to France, my first thought was, "Why don't we have this at home?" The NEC no longer has any grade crossings, can handle Acelas, and most of its restrictions are in or near the major cities. I think with a little basic leveling and tightening up, the MAS on the dash sections of the Corridor could be raised another 30 mph without difficulty.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Joe V on Mon Oct 8 18:23:51 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 18:20:31 2018.

There are a dozen grade crossings in New England.
MN is an obstacle course.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by AlM on Mon Oct 8 19:06:03 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 18:20:31 2018.

You can't run trains at 150 mph through this curve

One of many curves on the route.



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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Oct 8 19:56:57 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by AlM on Mon Oct 8 19:06:03 2018.

How is the speed on curves calculated?

When I'm on MNR or even the subway, the thing slows for curves so much that I can feel zero turning force. You could easily drive a rubber tire car on those curves a double the speed the train is restricted to while feeling only a moderate centripetal force.

Years ago, I can recall being on a PCC taking curves with what 10 year old me thought was alarming speed and resulting force. If you were standing you'd need to brace, and I thought it would tumble off the elevated (not even close, it turns out). Perhaps that speed would cause wear on the train wheels +/or rails, but nobody seemed to care at that time.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Dave on Mon Oct 8 20:05:20 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

I disagree. There are various city pairs that are rural between teh two cities and the population will support HSR. Case in point:

Between Dallas and Houston


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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 20:25:17 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dave on Mon Oct 8 20:05:20 2018.

The most important cities are in the NEC.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Dave on Mon Oct 8 21:43:59 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 20:25:17 2018.

What does that have to do with the viability of HSR? City pairs are selected based on population and the ease or difficult of building the ROW between them. Texas Central plans on connecting the 4th largest city by population with the 9th largest city in the U.S., with a route that is largely rural between the two.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 21:49:52 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dave on Mon Oct 8 21:43:59 2018.

Because without New York and Washington it's lame.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 8 22:13:51 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

There’s essentially no room for HSR in America in the very corridors where it would be most successful

Didn't know you hated trains that much. Didn't stop to think that the places we build interstate highways are also the places we can build HSR corridors? (You know, like how they're built next to Autobahns.)

Not to mention, the fewer stops an intercity train makes, the higher the average speed gets—and besides that, even at a 145-mph average speed, a high-speed train with stops would still get from NY to Chicago in six hours (presuming the most direct route; think I-80 and nearby), and a nonstop could possibly do it in 4½ hours.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 8 22:41:00 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Oct 8 17:44:55 2018.

That's what tilt trains are for.

But it doesn't help if Amtrak runs a tilt train through a curve at the same speed as for conventional trains.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Oct 8 23:23:18 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 17:41:38 2018.

The NEC is essentially over a century old and hosts numerous slow commuter services. Most TGV lines are dedicated ROW's.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 9 00:07:57 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Oct 8 23:23:18 2018.

While it may not be possible to run at extremely high speeds on the entire NEC, it should certainly be possible to increase the speeds where it is safe and practicable to do so.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by menJop on Tue Oct 9 00:20:23 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

While we were busy sprawling out into the suburbs, Europe was busy rebuilding its cities.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Oct 9 06:10:14 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Oct 8 17:41:38 2018.

An increase from 150 mph to 186 mph

FWIW, even in Europe, the fastest that you can milk a classic line from French, German, and Austrian experience has generally been 250 km/h (155 mph) or so. Classic lines generally have far less generous curvatures allowing for high speed operation. At best, the NEC is going to be a 250 km/h line even with tunnel and bridge replacement, additional track, elevated cant deficiency, and selected realignment.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Dave on Tue Oct 9 07:28:57 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 21:49:52 2018.

LOL!

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 07:47:38 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

The NEC is what it is and might never be changed.

As far as GOOD HSR, a NYC-CHI route would be fairly easy despite suburban growth...

You use the I-80 ROW for the base route. Since HSR uses its own structure it is a simple matter to run over or under most grade changes, and to string-line a few curves.

People here nay-say me, but there is no reason why it could not be done. There is no reason why an HSR could not make the NYC-CHI run in say five hours, and that is competitive with air travel when you add in travel to and from airpots, obligatory waiting and the TSA.

ROAR

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 10:34:39 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 07:47:38 2018.

That's competitive with air travel even with no TSA delay. It'd even be competitive if you had to travel across the river to Hoboken to get the train.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 10:36:23 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Oct 8 23:23:18 2018.

So is the Berlin-Hamburg line, but the average speed of high-speed trains on there is close to 120 mph with its top speed of 143 mph; compare the Acela Express' highest average speed of about 80 mph. The Berlin-Hamburg line also has a lot of fast freight.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 10:39:34 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by menJop on Tue Oct 9 00:20:23 2018.

There's urban sprawl in "Europe" too. They have Autobahns, Autoroutes, Autopistas/Autovias et al and it's on the highway network where most of their land freight travels, not the railroad.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 10:41:53 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Oct 9 06:10:14 2018.

The top speed is not too relevant. The main thing is average speed, and if that's in the triple digits, distances of up to 400 miles are very competitive.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by alantrain on Tue Oct 9 10:51:19 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Oct 8 17:44:55 2018.

We have been to China and Hong Kong. In both places, they have been able to weave HSR through heavily populated areas. Not been to Japan, but on Youtube there are many lines in very dense areas. Where there is a will there is a way.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Oct 9 10:58:57 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 8 22:13:51 2018.

Way to ignore the post you’re responding to.

The whole idea is that except for rural interstates, the area around present day interstates is fully developed and there is no room for HSR corridors.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by nasadowsk on Tue Oct 9 11:01:08 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Steamdriven on Mon Oct 8 19:56:57 2018.

Theres a formula and one of the factors is called cant deficiency. This number affects curve speeds quite a bit. In the US, the max normally allowed is 3 inches, and in many places only 1.5 is run. The FRA allows 6 under waiver. France allows 8 and Germany allows 11 (roughly, the real values are in mm). I think the German case requires special certification and en-route weighing. To someone not used to such high numbers, it is an eye opener the first time...

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Oct 9 11:01:45 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 10:39:34 2018.

That’s not sprawl. European highways are used for intercity travel instead of intracity travel.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 13:07:27 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Oct 9 10:58:57 2018.

You build it right on top of the interstate ROW. Interstate will be on the ground and the HSR elevated through the congested areas right on top of the highway.

ROAR

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 9 13:39:37 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by alantrain on Tue Oct 9 10:51:19 2018.

where there is a will and NO civil rights (Chinas, Hong Kong)

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Oct 9 14:00:53 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 13:07:27 2018.

$$$$$

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by AlM on Tue Oct 9 14:27:32 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Oct 9 14:00:53 2018.

And the most modern interstates were designed with curves that can easily be taken by a car at 80 but not by a train at 150.



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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 14:48:02 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 13:07:27 2018.



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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 14:53:02 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by nasadowsk on Tue Oct 9 11:01:08 2018.

The Acela Express was supposed to operate normally with 9" cant deficiency.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2013/03/13/2013-04679/vehicletrack-interaction-safety-standards-high-speed-and-high-cant-deficiency-operations

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 15:01:54 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by AlM on Tue Oct 9 14:27:32 2018.

In the cities, the train slows down a bit, out in the big beyond, we can stringline the curves. An elevated structure cutting across a far is no big deal, and most of the land remains available to agriculture. Farmers LOVE someone giving them free money for life.

ROAR

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by AlM on Tue Oct 9 15:21:48 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 15:01:54 2018.

The entire country isn't like ND. There are hills.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by zac on Tue Oct 9 15:25:53 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

The environs of Paris aren't rural either. I took the TGV round trip to Bordeaux and it is notable that you don't slow down until you are practically at Montparnasse station. 200mph in the open, about 175 as we got closer to Paris. We did slow down into Bordeaux though. They don't want to disturb the grapes after all.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by zac on Tue Oct 9 15:28:06 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by zac on Tue Oct 9 15:25:53 2018.

and if you want slow, take the RER from central Paris to CDG. The train doesn't break 35mph. I was watching the speed on my phone.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by AlM on Tue Oct 9 15:29:55 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 15:01:54 2018.

Care to run high speed rail over I-80 here, in PA?



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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by zac on Tue Oct 9 15:30:57 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by zac on Tue Oct 9 15:25:53 2018.

and if you want slow, take the RER from central Paris to CDG. The train doesn't break 35mph. I was watching the speed on my phone, as I was on the TGV.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Oct 9 16:26:37 2018, in response to This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 8 17:19:05 2018.

Think it has more to do with govt ownership. It's no coincidence most hsr companies are state owned and not quasi govt agency like Amtrak who has to have hat in hand begging for a few coins every yr. The govt with the hsr are all in on hsr so when they see a need to have a hsr line between two cities they build it to hell with NIMBY's much like any other public works project.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 9 17:30:16 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Oct 8 23:23:18 2018.

The TGV stil serves some ancient stub terminals, but once out of town, onto their special ROW they go.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 9 17:47:30 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 9 07:47:38 2018.

The trouble with I-80 is that it doe not go through any major city between upper Manhattan and Youngstown, OH

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by nasadowsk on Wed Oct 10 03:26:26 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 9 14:53:02 2018.

I believe the X2000 did in fact operate at 9 inches in service. The Acela was far too heavy and unstable at speed to ever be allowed 9 inches.

ABB had the superior product, but snowmobiles, inc had the better financing...

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Oct 10 08:49:26 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Oct 9 14:00:53 2018.

Interstates have overpasses and underpasses. Are we going to do something like AirTrain JFK over the Van Wyck, but all the way across NJ, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana? It doesn't sound practical.

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 10 09:36:18 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Oct 10 08:49:26 2018.

How about this, then? This is the Frankfurt to Mannheim railroad, next to the Autobahn.



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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!

Posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Wed Oct 10 09:40:09 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR!, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 9 17:47:30 2018.

The first step along the I-76 corridor (aka Lehigh Line) certainly would be a prime candidate but every suggestion of passenger rail anywhere near existing ROW is shut down by the freights.

Here, read this article, and tell me it doesn't scream "AND THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS": Allentown's train to NYC jumps the tracks

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Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 10 10:16:41 2018, in response to Re: This is why we can’t have HSR?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 10 09:36:18 2018.

Farmland. Thanks for agreeing with me.

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