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S. Phoenix residents say "Four Lanes or No Train" (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 11:21:58 2018

But the Associated Press has to make it about ethnicity and culture.

Extension of Phoenix rail debated in Latino community

By Anita Snow
Sep. 25, 2018 2:49 AM EDT
The defiant message hangs under the Mexican bakery’s Spanish-language sign in Phoenix’s poorest neighborhood, rejecting the city’s idea of progress: “4 ʟᴀɴᴇs ᴏʀ ɴᴏ ᴛʀᴀɪɴ.”

Similar placards are plastered along the proposed new leg of Phoenix’s light-rail system, a plan that progressed quietly until some shop owners in the mostly Hispanic and black community complained that reducing car traffic from four to two lanes on the affected thoroughfare could hurt business.

It was discussed for six years, and 55 percent of voters citywide — as well as 70 percent of voters in the two districts it would traverse — approved an initiative to help fund the 5.5-mile (8.9-kilometer) extension.

But business owners in this once-segregated area suddenly protested plans to shrink the roadway to two lanes on the Central Avenue route past automotive shops and Latino markets. Some neighbors worried it would bring more crime, push up rents or change the character of their community.

Residents of low-income minority neighborhoods often assume they will be bypassed or harmed by such projects, activists and academics said. There are innumerable tales of communities lost to progress: hundreds of Mexican-American families displaced from Los Angeles’ Chavez Ravine, now home to Dodgers Stadium; thousands of people relocated from a black and Polish Detroit neighborhood known as Poletown for a General Motors factory; Phoenix’s Golden Gate Barrio razed for the expansion of Sky Harbor International Airport.

“History matters,” said urban planning professor Francisco Lara-Valencia, who takes his Arizona State University students to south Phoenix to study the project.

“South Phoenix has suffered a long time — with segregation, discrimination,” he said. “But this project could bring more development and other good things to the area.”

The last-minute protests demonstrate the importance of early input from long-mistreated communities on major projects, transportation experts said.

Cities sometimes substitute voter sentiment for true community outreach, said Robert Puentes, president and CEO of the Eno Center for Transportation, a Washington think tank.

“Assuming that local communities will sign on can turn out to be dramatically wrong,” added Raj Rajkumar, professor and director at Carnegie Mellon University’s Metro21 Smart Cities Institute in Pittsburgh.

But minority groups more often complain they are being ignored for transportation options they need to get to work, school and medical appointments.

In Georgia, residents of some majority-black neighborhoods in recent months accused Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority officials of favoring white residents in their plans to expand rail into wealthier areas. The Los Angeles Metropolitan Transit Authority was forced to adjust bus fares and relieve overcrowding in the 1990s after minority neighborhoods complained it was cutting their bus routes even as it spent more on commuter rail to wealthier Anglo areas.

Rajkumar said a lack of public transit can limit opportunities people in poor minority neighborhoods, noting that “if one cannot afford to own a car and not even have access to transportation to go to an interview, things go downhill very quickly.”

When Arizona’s largest city began studying the possibility of light rail in the 1990s, “the people in south Phoenix said, ‘Why are we being excluded? We use transportation more than anyone else,’” said Ed Pastor, a Latino Democrat who retired in 2015 as the area’s representative in Congress. Planners then included the south Phoenix extension.

After that, “we met all the requirements, we held over 70 public meetings,” said Scott Smith, CEO of the Valley Metro regional transit authority. “But I think a lot of people weren’t paying attention, and we need to go above and beyond because this is really a unique neighborhood.”

Faced with new protests, the Valley Metro regional transit authority scrambled this month to organize a half-dozen community meetings that each drew up to 100 people. Questions were answered. Written feedback was solicited in English and Spanish.

But with a new City Council vote on the project looming this week, some supporters said they fear the project could now be up in the air.

Smith said designers opted for two lanes because maintaining four could require the demolition of up to 60 buildings. He insisted that reducing four lanes to two would not slow traffic.

“For people to now say they are surprised is erroneous,” insisted Pastor’s successor, Rep. Ruben Gallego.

But distrust is high in the community of blacks and Hispanics who were once banned from housing in the white Anglo neighborhoods to the north, said south Phoenix activist Joseph Larios.

“The city cited the historical disparities here to get the money, but have otherwise ignored us,” said Larios, whose parents lived in Golden Gate.

Celia Contreras, the owner of a window tinting business who launched the “4 Lanes or No Train” campaign, declared: “They want to shove this down our throats.”

But many others support the project in the community where 28 percent of the people don’t have cars. They formed their own group, “Build South Central.”

“We have a lot of people here who cannot drive,” longtime Latino resident Julian Sodari noted.

Lawrence Robinson, an African American who grew up in south Phoenix, said he suspected outside light-rail opposition groups have thrown the “last-minute curveball.”

The council affirmed the current two-lane design in June and will review that decision Wednesday.

Smith, of Valley Metro, said a council majority has consistently backed the two-lane configuration and voting differently would be a “gigantic shift” that could throw the project off schedule and risk federal funding. Two of the seven members oppose all projects involving the 26-mile (42-kilometer) light-rail system in operation since 2008.

City voters in 2015 approved $31.5 billion in transportation funds that included $220 million for the south Phoenix rail extension. Another $150 million from a voter-approved regional proposition and $595 million in federal grants would provide the rest of the nearly $1 billion needed to build it.

If it remains on schedule, construction could begin in 2019 and be completed in 2023.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 11:52:12 2018, in response to S. Phoenix residents say "Four Lanes or No Train" (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 11:21:58 2018.

They make everything about race these days.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 25 12:06:20 2018, in response to S. Phoenix residents say "Four Lanes or No Train" (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 11:21:58 2018.

Hmm..
Sorta like how New York refuses to build the Utica avenue subway...but Did build new lines In Manhattan.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 12:09:13 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 11:52:12 2018.

Even when the people don't do so themselves.

Going back on topic, I wonder how much more or less of a problem this might be if they were planning to put the light rail underground. Seems like we forgot how to do that after the first half of the last century; we used to put trolleys underground all the time.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Tue Sep 25 12:50:49 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 11:52:12 2018.

EVERYBODY in Phoenix needs their car and their lanes. Way more extreme than say LA. Completely and totally car dependent whether you are white or black, rich or poor.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:03:23 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 11:52:12 2018.

Because it often is:

There are innumerable tales of communities lost to progress: hundreds of Mexican-American families displaced from Los Angeles’ Chavez Ravine, now home to Dodgers Stadium; thousands of people relocated from a black and Polish Detroit neighborhood known as Poletown for a General Motors factory; Phoenix’s Golden Gate Barrio razed for the expansion of Sky Harbor International Airport.

“History matters,” said urban planning professor Francisco Lara-Valencia, who takes his Arizona State University students to south Phoenix to study the project.

“South Phoenix has suffered a long time — with segregation, discrimination,” he said. “But this project could bring more development and other good things to the area.”

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 13:47:06 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:03:23 2018.

Which the examples you stated have nothing to do with race, if you were to say it has to do with social income and class, I could agree with that. Just because a certain neighborhood happens to be made up of a certain ethnicity, and the neighborhood is divided or destroyed for Progress, it doesn't make it racism. Anyway, I'm sure they could figure out a way to have four lanes and the train

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:49:42 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 13:47:06 2018.

Somehow, poor white neighborhoods never seem to be bulldozed.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by chicagomotorman on Tue Sep 25 13:54:01 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:49:42 2018.

Extremely self hating post.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by chicagomotorman on Tue Sep 25 13:54:25 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 11:52:12 2018.

iawtlp

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by jrf2 on Tue Sep 25 14:04:10 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 12:09:13 2018.

Going undergroup is so much more expensive. It might kill the whole project.

Some of the extra's you have to worry about.
Utilities (Gas, sewer, phone/cable wires, electrical)
Foundation issues
Waterproofing



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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 25 14:19:32 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:03:23 2018.

"There are innumerable tales of communities lost to progress:

Enter Robert Moses. I think of the neighborhoods he ripped apart in NYC building the Cross Bronx & Sheridan Expys & the Gowanus expantion in Bay Ridge for the Approach to the Verrazano and the Clearview in Queens. He tried his best to have the Clearview exp go all the way to the airport. One of the rare times he was stopped at Hillside Ave..
IIRC, those neighborhoods at the time were mostly white.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Dave on Tue Sep 25 14:46:34 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:49:42 2018.

You forgot about the Bronx, e.g., Tremont, after Robert Moses pushed through the Cross-Bronx Expressway.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 25 15:12:56 2018, in response to S. Phoenix residents say "Four Lanes or No Train" (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 11:21:58 2018.

This seems like a bit of NIMBY-ism. While I can understand that no one wants to be displaced- this project seems designed with that notion in mind. And it should increase the connectivity of the neighborhood in question, not isolate it.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 25 15:13:55 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 25 14:19:32 2018.

My grandfather lost the cheap hotel he operated on 3rd Avenue when the Gowanus was widened in the late 1950s.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 15:16:35 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 25 13:49:42 2018.

Really? I can think of neighborhoods that were destroyed when the Cross Bronx Expressway, the Gowanis Expressway, even the approach to the Verrazano Bridge what built. People are going to get displaced, no matter what race or ethnicity they are.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Sep 25 15:52:11 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 15:16:35 2018.

The excuse given is always correcting poverty driven decay. statiscally, black and brown residents are far more likely to be in the targeted "blighted" neighborhoods. The redlining which drove the blight has a very clear history. That said, Asian ghettoes get razed, too. Bottom line, it is those who have the least political clout who get shafted--no surprise.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 25 15:56:45 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 13:47:06 2018.

Wrong.

Thats the Classic example of "redlining thru a neighborhood ".

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 25 16:31:21 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 25 12:06:20 2018.

One of the problems with the Utica Ave subway is that S/O the area around Ave M, die to the high water table in the area, the line would have to be elevated and the NIMBYs would never stand for that. Had the line been built in the 1930s when originally planned there would have been less of a problem since the neighborhood was not as densely populated.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 25 16:50:00 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 25 15:13:55 2018.

Do you know if he got paid for his loss??

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 17:13:39 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by jrf2 on Tue Sep 25 14:04:10 2018.

Didn't stop cities like Newark from building them. Or Rochester.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Sep 25 17:44:07 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 25 15:56:45 2018.

It's still not racial, as those neighborhoods were/are white

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Sep 25 18:41:34 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 17:13:39 2018.

And how many years ago were those?

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Alan Follett on Tue Sep 25 21:05:40 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by 3-9 on Tue Sep 25 18:41:34 2018.

Or, in more recent times, Seattle and Buffalo. Or Portland, though that’s more a tunnel than a subway.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Alan Follett on Tue Sep 25 21:20:14 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 25 15:12:56 2018.

Remember, many small business operators are culturally predisposed to believe that all their trade comes in by car. They tend to be skeptical about the idea that any significant volume of desirable customers use transit. Hence the 1950’s bustitution of SF Muni’s 38-Geary Line, which should have been one of the strongest in the system.

Alan Follett
South San Francisco, CA

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Sep 25 21:45:53 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Alan Follett on Tue Sep 25 21:05:40 2018.

Seattle's tunnel was built for buses (which is probably how they were able to sell the idea), and after a few years of convenient coexistence with the light rail, the buses will soon be evicted back to the surface thanks to some short sighted real estate project that will destroy the northern tunnel portal. It's like if NYC's Hudson Yards development required the closing of Hudson Yards.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Sep 25 21:49:51 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by jrf2 on Tue Sep 25 14:04:10 2018.

They also seem to have forgotten how to build elevated. Modern "els" are so silent you can barely hear them (DC Metro, Airtrain). And none of the stuff you mentioned (other than foundations, but they have no problem doing that for highways).

It's a good compromise, a single line of central pillars can take the space of one lane and the cars won't have to share. The trains can also move at higher speeds by being grade separated.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by geoffc on Tue Sep 25 23:12:56 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 17:13:39 2018.

How about Toronto? Eglington Crosstown. Under construction now.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 26 01:10:34 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Sep 25 21:49:51 2018.

I was thinking the same thing.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Sep 26 10:47:53 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by randyo on Wed Sep 26 01:10:34 2018.

Then there's the cost factor.

I'm sure these residents would still balk at the cost of the project should it be an elevated structure vs. in the median, like it is now.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:10:13 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Sep 25 21:45:53 2018.

and after a few years of convenient coexistence with the light rail, the buses will soon be evicted back to the surface thanks to some short sighted real estate project that will destroy the northern tunnel portal

Source?

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:11:09 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 25 15:12:56 2018.

Nobody's getting displaced, but a four-lane street is being reduced to two lanes under the current plan. That doesn't "increase connectivity".

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:15:02 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Alan Follett on Tue Sep 25 21:20:14 2018.

Remember, many small business operators are culturally predisposed to believe that all their trade comes in by car. They tend to be skeptical about the idea that any significant volume of desirable customers use transit

But it does. Car trunks carry far more merchandise than bags in hand being lugged onto a LRT do. Now bars and restaurants would be better suited to the rail traveler, what with the matter of going home afterwards and not driving.

Hence the 1950s bustitution of SF Muni’s 38-Geary Line, which should have been one of the strongest in the system

Nothing to do with commerce. Buses carry no more goods than trolleys do. That was a pure MUNI folly.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 26 13:32:49 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Sep 25 21:45:53 2018.

"It's like if NYC's Hudson Yards development required the closing of Hudson Yards."

Thats a bit of a stretch. The last freight car delivered to the west side RR yards was in or about 1984. It was a NY Times consigned carload of newsprint from Canada to the 60th St team tracks. Penn Central & Conrail successfully chased all freight business away from Manhattan. The yards were never "closed" per-se, they were more/less abandoned awaiting for serious $$$ offers. The condemnation of the DV bridge at that time was a big help to encourage "closing". For years, it was kept in the open position.
Penn Central reality was the holding Co. who owned the land & saw more profit in marketing the land to developers v/s keeping it as a railyard.
The land indeed seemed abandoned until the Hudson Yds development situation was formed.
That was a good 10-15 yrs after the last freight car was emptied.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 13:37:29 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 26 13:32:49 2018.

Penn Central & Conrail successfully chased all freight business away from Manhattan

So you're saying the federal government "chased" the rail freight business away from Manhattan. That's credible.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 13:42:16 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by geoffc on Tue Sep 25 23:12:56 2018.

Sad that that one doesn't have more underground stations.

One thing I don't believe from the Line 5 study is the notion that light rail ridership would be heavier than a regular subway line, though.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 26 14:19:45 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 25 16:50:00 2018.

I believe that he did not. He owned the business, but rented the building. Any condemnation award would have been paid to the property owner. He and my mom always spoke of this as a very unfortunate thing.

I'll talk to my mom and see if she can give a clear answer. Some days, she's great mentally- others, well....not so much.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 26 14:23:52 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:15:02 2018.

I think it's a little of both- while it's possible to carry more in a car trunk than on any public transportation, overall, public transit brings more people.

I'm sure the business owners in Jamaica were sincere in their belief that getting rid of the el would make their neighborhood more attractive, as we and they found out, doing so actually made it less accessible.

As for the bustitution in San Francisco, I'm not familiar with that particular issue, but in the 1950s, any street vehicle was considered more modern and just better than anything on rails.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 26 16:24:12 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 17:13:39 2018.

Does Phoenix have a defunct canal they can use?

No comparison.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 26 16:28:58 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:10:13 2018.



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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 26 16:29:13 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:10:13 2018.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/transportation/news/2018/2018-0706-CPS-DSTT-changes-ahead.aspx

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 26 16:34:23 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 12:11:09 2018.

FOUR LANES GOOD, TWO LANES BAD BETTER

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by AlM on Wed Sep 26 16:37:14 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 26 16:24:12 2018.

Phoenix's "canals" are dry about 360 days per year. The other 5 days they fill up with flood waters.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 26 17:13:15 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 26 13:37:29 2018.

Yep. When Conrail took over in 1976, there was several carloading companies that shipped westbound goods by rail from the west side yards. There was Western Carloading, Universal fast freight forwarders, Wardex, etc just to name a few. All chased away to New Jersey.
In 1978, Anhauser Busch Budweiser Beers sales were growing by leaps & bounds in the NYC metro area with the demise of local brews like Rheingold & Schaeffer.
Their Newark brewery couldn't keep up with the demand so they approached Conrail.
AB would guarantee on average 1000 carloads of beer per month in the spring summer & fall demand peaks to be shipped up from Atlanta & delevered to the 60th St & 12th Ave team tracks. This would be good for the railroads bottom line & would mean an increase in train traffic, increase of jobs to offload & truck out the brew to middleman distributers all over the tri state area.
Conrail said no. They did not want any new business on the west side of Manhattan.
Now weather or not someone from Conrail was in bed with land owner Penn Central Realty is open to speculation.
My cynical mind tends to believe there was.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 27 07:07:46 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 26 17:13:15 2018.

Had that worked, it might have preserved major freight traffic into NYC (besides the remnants in Bay Ridge and the stub on Staten Island)


Had that worked, maybe there'd be less truck traffic even today. I think it would have delayed or slowed the gentrification of the West Side, for sure.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 27 07:07:52 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 26 17:13:15 2018.

Had that worked, it might have preserved major freight traffic into NYC (besides the remnants in Bay Ridge and the stub on Staten Island)


Had that worked, maybe there'd be less truck traffic even today. I think it would have delayed or slowed the gentrification of the West Side, for sure.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Easy on Thu Sep 27 14:41:26 2018, in response to S. Phoenix residents say "Four Lanes or No Train" (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 11:21:58 2018.

While I disagree with their position, it is refreshing to see minorities involved in shaping local politics and not just accepting what is planned without offering input.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by T8H5307N on Thu Sep 27 14:53:48 2018, in response to S. Phoenix residents say "Four Lanes or No Train" (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 25 11:21:58 2018.

Never mind.

The Phoenix City Council voted 6-2 on Wednesday to move ahead with the two-lane plan for the controversial light rail extension on South Central Avenue.


full story

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 27 15:06:51 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by T8H5307N on Thu Sep 27 14:53:48 2018.

That doesn't make it the end of the story. The city council are not kings.

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Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 27 15:07:41 2018, in response to Re: S. Phoenix residents say ''Four Lanes or No Train'' (Central Avenue corridor), posted by Easy on Thu Sep 27 14:41:26 2018.

They aren't construing themselves as "minorities"; only the press is.

Disheartening to see you get into that thing of dividing people into groups.

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