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Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 15 04:55:39 2018

Boston Globe

State Senate backs study on electrification of T rail system

By Adam Vaccaro
May 12, 2018
The state Senate is backing activists’ efforts to electrify the MBTA’s commuter rail system.

A proposal in the next fiscal year’s draft budget released by the chamber last Thursday would require transportation officials to study transitioning two MBTA lines — the Providence and Fairmount services — from diesel to electric power and report on the proposal by next March. The T would need to present a plan for running electric service on those two lines by September 2022.

The advocacy group Transit Matters unveiled a plan in February to electrify the system, starting with these two lines, as part of a plan to run more frequent commuter rail service throughout the day. The office of Senate President Harriette Chandler, who pushed for the language to be included in the budget, said it is directly based on Transit Matters’s “regional rail” proposal.

Advocates have clamored for electrified service both as a way to decrease emissions and provide better service, because electric vehicles accelerate more quickly.

Transit Matters thinks the two lines would be the best candidates to electrify first — the Providence line because Amtrak’s electric service runs along most of its route and Fairmount because it the shortest, at about 9 miles.

Also, electrifying the Fairmount line would be a way of moving a step further toward fulfulling promises to improve service for riders in Mattapan, Dorchester, and Roxbury.

“Let’s start out with these two, doing it in a staged way that allows the state to step up to the idea, pilot it, and convince people who are skeptical of the costs and benefits that it can be done and that they’d be worth it,” said Jarred Johnson, a member of Transit Matters.

This isn’t entirely new ground for the T. The agency is already studying whether to electrify the system as part of a broader review of the commuter rail network that will also explore whether to run more frequent service. That study is due to be completed in late 2019.

Johnson said the Senate budget proposal would add urgency and more specific parameters to the idea.

Moreover, he said, it signals to the T that there is some legislative support for the proposal, though the Senate budget doesn’t promise any more money to help improve the commuter rail.

If the Senate adopts the plan, it would still need to be approved by the House of Representatives and Governor Charlie Baker, who has in the past vetoed transportation studies included in the state budget.

MBTA spokesman Joe Pesaturo declined to comment, saying that the agency is reviewing the budget proposal.

In a December interview, Transportation Secretary Stephanie Pollack said electrifying the system requires close study because it is “complicated.”

“Just to give you an example, it requires infrastructure on both sides of the tracks. We have never looked at whether we have enough land on either side of the tracks to put the infrastructure up,” she said. “And do we have the generating capacity to generate the electricity that the T would need to buy from the grid? So it’s not just little questions.”

The Senate budget also includes more funds for the state’s regional transit authorities, which operate bus services in Springfield, Worcester, Cape Cod, and elsewhere across the state.

Many of those authorities have said they’re being forced to cut service due to inadequate funding in recent years. This year, the RTAs split $80.4 million from the state.

The Senate proposes funding the agencies with a combined $88 million, the figure the agencies have pressed for, and tying future funding to inflation. The House, by comparison, proposed $82 million for the RTAs, and only after originally proposing $80 million.

The Senate proposal would require the transit agencies to work more closely with state transportation officials to track data, develop best practices, and review routes as a contingency for much of the new funding. The House budget would also require the RTAs to review ways to improve service.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 15 06:45:32 2018, in response to Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 15 04:55:39 2018.

This is great news.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 15 11:21:56 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 15 06:45:32 2018.

The best news you've heard of in a long time?

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Alan Follett on Tue May 15 20:24:39 2018, in response to Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 15 04:55:39 2018.

Providence should be easy and only modestly expensive, just a matter of buying locomotives and/or rolling stock to serve an existing electrification. Couple of branches, well, let’s say, somewhere short of Project Apollo dimensions, but nowadays, quien sabe?

Alan Follett
South San Francisco, CA

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 01:29:42 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Alan Follett on Tue May 15 20:24:39 2018.

There are still some unelectrified parts of the Providence line, including the Wickford Junction terminus. MBTA may as well just buy electric locos to use with the push-pull stock.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed May 16 03:13:39 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Alan Follett on Tue May 15 20:24:39 2018.

Providence should be easy and only modestly expensive, just a matter of buying locomotives and/or rolling stock to serve an existing electrification

And allegedly from what I've heard, substations, as Amtrak basically drew up the NEC electrification with only their units in mind.

FWIW, while anything electric would be nice, I'd hope that MBTA thinks outside of the box and buys FLIRTs. If you're going to go electric, it would be best to do it right and get high acceleration multiple units.

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(1475736)

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 16 09:22:47 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 15 11:21:56 2018.

So far MBTA has opposed using electric locos on the NEC due to Amtrak's outrageous electric rates (as with MARC) and desire for uniform motive power.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 12:05:12 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Joe V on Wed May 16 09:22:47 2018.

MARC is not going all diesel because of Amtrak's alleged electricity rates, but because Amtrak won't service the AEM-7s anymore and the Maryland MTA isn't getting ACS-64s to replace them (but funny enough, SEPTA is).

Besides, the state of Massachusetts owns its portion of the Northeast Corridor within its borders and Amtrak pays them to use it; the only real quid pro quo would be on the Rhode Island side FWICS.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 12:23:14 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed May 16 03:13:39 2018.

I'd hope that MBTA thinks outside of the box and buys FLIRTs

Why; do you have stock in Stadler Rail? And has there been a FLIRT built that can use a 48"-tall high platform?

The longest MBTA train on the lines in question are apparently seven- to eight-car bilevels and still use six-car trains on average. If something like the ACS-64 can't accelerate a train like that faster than an HSP46 (or even the Morrison-Knudsen F40PHMs), then there's a problem, but I don't see that being a problem.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed May 16 21:15:22 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed May 16 03:13:39 2018.

Get Silverliner Vs or M8s, no need to re-invent (or re-import) the wheel here.

As for high vs low platforms, if Keolis is serious about their Iron Curtain for downtown, might as well go high platform with access control particularly for the Fairmount line.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 17 01:15:06 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed May 16 21:15:22 2018.

Fleet duplication makes zero sense at this point. ACS-64s would be the way to go; then the GP40MCs can finally retire.

So-called access control is too expensive too.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by 3-9 on Thu May 17 17:00:46 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 12:05:12 2018.

Interesting. Why doesn't Amtrak just make it worth their while to continue servicing the AEM-7's? Or are there absolutely no parts left?

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 17 18:24:25 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 17 01:15:06 2018.

I feel like lack of access control is what is holding back high frequency commuter rail, and also what intimidates new users. A turnstyle system makes sense - anyone can figure those out even without knowing English - the system won't let you in without enough money to go *somewhere*, and won't let you out if you don't have enough to get out at that station (and thus you would have to top up, backtrack or go negative like WMATA allows).

Conductors selling tickets on board can result in a fare greater than you can afford. But, once you're on board, if you don't have enough money to get to the next station from the one you boarded, you are theoretically in "theft of services" land.

PoP is the worst of the three as far as confusion - you could be out of compliance and not even know it, and unlike accidentally boarding a conductor-served train without enough cash, this can result in a surprise hefty fine.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 17 19:35:36 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 17 18:24:25 2018.

I feel like lack of access control is what is holding back high frequency commuter rail, and also what intimidates new users

New users are more intimidated by turnstiles. The only thing holding back higher frequency is the whim of politicians, but that's what you get when the politicians take over out of a lust for power.

LIRR has no turnstiles and yet has high frequency.

Conductors selling tickets on board can result in a fare greater than you can afford

It's a simple rule to buy the ticket if the ticket office is open, at stations that have ticket offices. Now having TVMs is what results in overzeal when it comes to on-board surcharges.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 17 23:15:57 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 17 19:35:36 2018.

I don't call the LIRR high frequency (outside rush hour). MNRR is the closest we have to true all day high frequency with almost all Westchester stops served at least twice an hour, and some with twice an hour express service. Conversely, the only Nassau county stops served twice an hour are the Port Washington branch, Mineola, and stops which happen to have multiple branches serving them.

Since there's hardly any staffed stations anymore, there's basically a TVM and no human to talk to. So a newbie ending up on a train without a ticket is pretty likely. Oddly enough on turnstile based systems, stations are typically staffed, making them even more user friendly.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by R30A on Thu May 17 23:42:00 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 17 23:15:57 2018.

The entire Babylon line sees half hourly off peak service if not better.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by R30A on Thu May 17 23:42:40 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by R30A on Thu May 17 23:42:00 2018.

And for that matter, so does Hicksville

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri May 18 01:02:52 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 17 19:35:36 2018.

LIRR has no turnstiles and yet has high frequency.

Wake me up when I get 4 tph minimum like a lightly used RER branch.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 18 01:10:40 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by R30A on Thu May 17 23:42:00 2018.

I Forgot about Hicksville, for some reason I thought it was Suffolk.

The Babylon branch would have made my list except for the fact that at several times midday weekends, a local is deleted in favor of adding an express. For example departures from Babylon between 9AM and 5PM:
9:20 9:53 10:20 11:05 11:20 11:53 12:20 1:05 1:20 1:51 1:53 2:20 3:05 3:20 4:05 4:20 4:55

The trains in italics only serve Amityville, Bellmore, Massapequa and Freeport, though I suppose I should add them to my list as well.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri May 18 01:21:38 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 12:23:14 2018.

Why; do you have stock in Stadler Rail?

Once you've ridden one, you'll understand why. :-)

And has there been a FLIRT built that can use a 48"-tall high platform?

FWIW, Stadler's rather decent at customized projects, and the move to modular frameworks makes the high floor issue less of a problem. Hell, they're making FLIRT's compatible with the UK's loading gauge and 36 in platform heights, so our stuff wouldn't too much of an impediment for them.

If something like the ACS-64 can't accelerate a train like that faster than an HSP46

The ACS-64 will out accelerate a diesel. A multiple unit will out accelerate the ACS-64. So why deny ourselves fastest scheduled services by buying electric locomotives?

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 06:27:15 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri May 18 01:02:52 2018.

RER not the same thing. And wake us up when RER has twelve-car trains rather than ten-car. Lucky for them that they don't have ADA nonsense to deal with and they have those steps up into the car from a high platform too. Never mind RER seats, ugh; you aren't riding too comfortably to Hicksville on those. No baggage racks either.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 06:39:31 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 06:27:15 2018.

Also forgot to mention that RER's top speed is now 75 miles per hour, slower than the LIRR. And it only reached that milestone in 2011 when the MI-09 cars came on line.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 06:56:09 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri May 18 01:21:38 2018.

Stadler's rather decent at customized projects, and the move to modular frameworks makes the high floor issue less of a problem

Ah, so you do have stock in that company. Now the question is if MBTA has the dough to retrofit their shops for MUs rather than just deal with some electric locos.

A multiple unit will out accelerate the ACS-64

Nope; that's only dependent upon the comparable load that the ACS-64's moving. A six-car bilevel train means MUs not competitive.

So why deny ourselves fastest scheduled services by buying electric locomotives?

EMUs do not guarantee "the fastest schedules". They would, however, guarantee higher maintenance costs and increased spare parts inventories over putting locos on existing stock.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Dave on Fri May 18 07:41:31 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri May 18 01:21:38 2018.

Ft. Worth's new TEXRail system will use Stadler DMUs.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by chicagomotorman on Fri May 18 11:54:22 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Dave on Fri May 18 07:41:31 2018.

Is that a part of the Trinity Rail Express?

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 12:29:31 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by chicagomotorman on Fri May 18 11:54:22 2018.

No, but it'll connect to TRE at the Fort Worth T&P station.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by Chicagomotorman on Fri May 18 12:32:47 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 12:29:31 2018.

Thank you.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri May 18 18:19:17 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Dave on Fri May 18 07:41:31 2018.

I guess I’ll finally have a reason to visit Texas. :-)

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Fri May 18 19:54:53 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Dave on Fri May 18 07:41:31 2018.

nice dmu unit
good photo too

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat May 19 03:14:26 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 06:27:15 2018.

RER not the same thing.

But RER is a combination of new built lines and old lines that date back to the dawn of railway operations in France. Everything is to mainline specifications, so why doesn't it count? :-)

And wake us up when RER has twelve-car trains rather than ten-car.

I'd rather have high frequency with ten cars than junky frequencies and twelve car sets. :-)

Never mind RER seats

I actually much prefer Euro-spec seats over our icky faux leather.

No baggage racks either.

FWIW, I've never actually used them in the States either on the LIRR or NJT. It's just easier to stand at the end of the car for anything that isn't intercity.

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Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat May 19 03:30:50 2018, in response to Re: Massachusetts state senate backs plan to electrify MBTA Providence and Fairmount commuter lines, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 18 06:39:31 2018.

Also forgot to mention that RER's top speed is now 75 miles per hour, slower than the LIRR.

It's actually 140 km/h which makes it faster than the LIRR. And their multiple units don't take off like snails. :-P

FWIW, RER A has some slow portions with lots of 90 km/h zones, but it's not as if the LIRR would run faster in those cases. The branches aren't 80 mph runs, nor are some of the local runs on the Babylon where my GPS hasn't seen 80 mph in ages...

And it only reached that milestone in 2011 when the MI-09 cars came on line.

IIRC, the MI79s/Z8100s have been capable of 140 km/h operation for some time, and those units date to 1980. IIRC, only the MS61s were 100 km/h units, and those things were restricted to local runs on RER A.

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