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Tuscarora Almanac for May 12 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 12 07:16:56 2018 Tuscarora Almanac - May 12, 1955 - The Book of Last Runs New York City Transit Authority IRT Division This is May 12, 1955, a Thursday and one of the very dark days in the history of the New York City Transit System. It is the last day of service on the 3rd Avenue El between the 149th Street Station in The Bronx and the Chatham Square Terminal in Manhattan. The last train left from the Chatham Square Terminal at 6:00 PM. It consisted of six MUDC motor cars; 1662, 1778, 1753, 1780, 1668 and 1671. A Look Back May 12, 1955 was a sad, sad day for New Yorkers with the closure of the last of the Manhattan Els. The last train left Chatham Square a little after 6:00 PM and arrived at 149 Street about 7:15 PM, about 45 minutes late. The train consisted of six MUDC cars and was marshaled as follows; (n) 1662-1778-1753-1780-1668-1671 (s). It was crowded with railfans and other last riders. The 3 Avenue El originally extended from South Ferry north to 129 Street with a branch on 42 Street to Grand Central Depot and another branch on 34 Street to the East River. There was also a branch to City Hall. Service began between South Ferry and Grand Central on August 26, 1878 and was extended to 129 Street by December 30, 1878. The line north of 129 Street was built by the Suburban Railway Company and was actually the fifth el. It ran as far north as Bronx Park and its also had a branch that ran to the Willis Avenue Station of the NY,NH and Hartford Railroad. Due to the fact that this el ran along 3 Avenue between 149 Street and Fordham Road it quickly became identified with the Manhattan El of the same name even though it was also used by 2 Avenue El trains. Service from 129 Street north began on May 17, 1886 and reached 149 Street by June 16, 1887. At its peak 3 Avenue El trains ran all the way between East 241 Street-White Plains Road and South Ferry. With the closure of the southern portion of the 2 Avenue El on June 13, 1942 the 3 Avenue El became the last el line in Manhattan. It was the sad fate of the 3 Avenue El to suffer “the death of 1,000 cuts.” The branch lines went first. The 42 Street Spur closed on December 6, 1923, the Harlem River Branch on or about April 14, 1924 and the 34 Street Branch on July 14, 1930. The mainline itself was closed between Chatham Square and South Ferry on December 22, 1950 although the very last train may have run in the early am hours of December 23. On this date also all el trains where cut back to Gun Hill Road from East 241 Street. The spur between Fordham Road and Bronx Park closed on November 14, 1951 and the line between Chatham Square and City Hall closed on December 31, 1953. The surviving portion of the el in The Bronx between 149 Street and Gun Hill Road lasted until April 28, 1973. (The last regular train actually ran in the early hours of April 29.) Sources: ERA Headlights , July 1955 NYD Bulletins (various issues) ERA All-Time Map of IRT Routes My own records. Tuscarora Almanac – May 12, 2015 – The Book of Wrecks Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Amtrak Northeast Corridor Line Northeast Regional Train No. 188 derails at Frankford Junction. The engine and seven cars leave the tracks. Eight people are killed and two hundred injured. The engine, a brand new Cites Sprinter ACS-64 No. 601 was heavily damaged. The seven Amfleet coaches were 81528, 82776, 82644, 43346, 82761, 82797 and 82981. Source: ERA Bulletin /June 2015 Thanks to Bzuck for the consist information. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for May 12 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 12 16:02:23 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for May 12, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 12 07:16:56 2018. As one of the few remaining people who rode the 3 Av el from end to end, I seem to recall that when riding the only time I did all the way from So/Fy, the train terminated at Gun Hill Rd. It may have been, however, that since it was on a Sunday, that the 241 St service was M-F only. |
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Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 12 21:24:19 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for May 12, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 12 07:16:56 2018. The 3rd Avenue EL as most know if it were to have survived would likely have needed to have undergone a complete rebuild during the 1960's. Had it survived, as I've noted in the past, I suspect it would have undergone two rebuilds since then, with the second after 9/11 (largely because the stretch next to the WTC would likely have been destroyed by the attacks and so it can take on NTT cars we have now and likely along with the (L) be one of the first lines for CBTC) with by now probably three branches:The Park Row Branch likely first is moved to Chambers Street, possibly as early as 1953. This branch, today likely numbered (8) in my view would have seen two extensions: The first to the World Trade Center around 1970, going to Liberty Place and Church Street, the second around 1985 or so to Battery Park City, continuing on Church south to Battery Place to Battery Park City and after going west a bit actually turning north at the end and terminating at West Thames St. This also likely becomes the main branch of the EL and if there is still peak-direction only express service would serve as such. The South Ferry Branch: This likely gets rebuilt via its former route, but possibly in some of the more narrow spots with two levels of single trackage, terminating as the old line did at South Ferry. This line likely gets the (9) designation. There might also be a shuttle track (or two) between South Ferry and Battery Park City that could be used for G.O.'s as well as a shuttle between the two branches. Any shuttle would carry the (S) designation like all of the others. The Brookfield Place Branch: This branch likely is built after 9/11 to serve what originally was the World Financial Center, running with the Park Row Branch on Worth until that branch breaks off at Centre and continues West on Broadway, eventually winding up on West Street and terminating at Brookfield Place. This would be the only subway service of any kind on West Street. There also in a rebuild of the main branches of the EL likely been a considerable consolidation of stations on the EL, as all stations would have been built to handle 10-car trains with stations likely moved to different positions even if they retain their names (for example, Chatam Square would have been moved a bit north since it would have been combined with Canal Street) and also to facilitate transfers to other lines more easily where possible. The stations today likely on the main section are these: Chatam Square Delancey St.-Bowery (Express, Transfer to (J) ) Houston St. (OOS Transfer to (F) ) Cooper Triangle (7th-8th Street) 14th Street (Express, Transfer to (L) at south end, OOS transfer to 4/5/6/N/Q/R/W, north end 16th Street) 23rd Street 34th Street 42nd Street (Express, Transfer to 4/5/6/7/S) 53rd Street (Express, Transfer to 6/E/M) 60th-63rd Street (Express, Transfer to 4/5/6/N/R/W at 60th and F/Q at 63rd, this before 9/11 likely is 59th-60th Street but moved north to connect to the 63rd Street station in a second rebuild) 68th Street-Hunter College (exits at 68th and 70th Street) 79th Street (exits at 77th and 79th Street) 86th Street (Express, OOS transfers to 4/5/6 at Lexington Avenue and (Q) at 2nd Avenue) 96th Street 106th Street 116th Street 125th Street (Express OOS Transfer to 4/5/6 at Lexington Avenue), last stop in Manhattan Continuing to the Bronx, stopping at: 138th Street (Express, Transfer to (6) ) 149th Street (Express, Transfer to 2/5) 156th Street 163rd Street Claremont Parkway (172nd Street) 180th Street Fordham Road-Webster Avenue 204th Street-Webster Avenue Gun Hill Road (Transfer to 2/5) After Gun Hill Road, possibly continuing along the (2) to Neidred Avenue ot 241-White Plains Road. That to me would likely have been how it would be today had it survived. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 13 00:55:00 2018, in response to Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 12 21:24:19 2018. Considering that the majority of the el would be a single route N/O Chatham Sq the likelihood of a separate number for any of the south end branches (assuming they would even have been built) is highly unlikely. It’s also doubtful that the So/Fy branch would have been rebuilt since the narrowness of the street would have probably required a total relocation of the structure to another street which would have been prohibitively expensive. The best that could have been hoped for would have been retaining the City Hall branch as the sole south terminal of the line. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 03:03:29 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by randyo on Sun May 13 00:55:00 2018. That I agree to some extent, and as noted more likely with that moved to Chambers and then becoming first the World Trade Center and now Battery Park City branch, with likely an offshoot after 9/11 built to cover Brookfield Place and West Street. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Dave on Sun May 13 07:29:57 2018, in response to Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 12 21:24:19 2018. What is the color of the sky in your universe? |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 13 11:06:25 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Dave on Sun May 13 07:29:57 2018. The color of the sky in Wallysworld is whatever you wish it to be! |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 13 15:18:04 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 03:03:29 2018. Many of the developments that took p;ace in later years were contingent on what public transit was available in the area If the 3 Av El had been in place only from City Hall north, it’s very likely the WTC would have been located farther east to accommodate it. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 15:36:55 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by randyo on Sun May 13 15:18:04 2018. Except the original plan WAS to actually have the WTC basically where the South Street Seaport still is as I remember. It was shifted to what had been "Radio Row" around 1964 or so because it I believe was easier to get the land needed for the WTC, plus the PATH trains were already there.They had just completed a multi-million dollar renovation of 30 and 50 Church Street (the "not quite twin" towers that pre-dated the WTC) when it was decided to tear those down rather than incorporate those towers into the WTC. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 13 17:49:21 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 15:36:55 2018. If the original location was used for the WTC, then the 3 Av El would have been about in the perfect location for it. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for May 12 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 13 18:24:10 2018, in response to Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 12 21:24:19 2018. Why hijack the thread? |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun May 13 18:28:51 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 15:36:55 2018. An attractive project management incentive for placing the WTC on the West Side (in addition to PATH and all those existing subway lines) was the fact that the excavation of the Towers' foundation added thousands of square feet in lucrative real estate to the south tip of Manhattan. That's today's Battery Park City. It is a sad historical irony that the 9/11 attack has kept the Cortlandt Street station on the (1) closed for 17 years. That stop figures prominently (along with Chambers/H and M/Park Place) in the decision to put retail beneath the WTC. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by AlM on Sun May 13 20:20:27 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun May 13 18:28:51 2018. added thousands of square feet in lucrative real estate to the south tip of Manhattan.Tear down the East River! |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 13 21:17:42 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by AlM on Sun May 13 20:20:27 2018. Tear down the East River!It's been proposed. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 13 22:19:28 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by AlM on Sun May 13 20:20:27 2018. There are only five hits for that phrase these days. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 13 22:25:29 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 13 21:17:42 2018. Why did you say the same thing almost three months ago? |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 22:32:23 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by AlM on Sun May 13 20:20:27 2018. I think you actually mean, "Tear UP The East River!" |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for May 12 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 22:33:16 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for May 12, posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 13 18:24:10 2018. I wasn't hijacking it. That was a long-held view of mine that actually is related to this. |
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World Trade Center |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 22:35:32 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by randyo on Sun May 13 17:49:21 2018. Yes, but only if the South Ferry branch survived.That said, I do think the WTC being where it was had as much to do with PATH as anything given they tore down two recently renovated buildings to accommodate the WTC (why those buildings were not incorporated into the WTC is another matter though those buildings probably would never have survived 9/11 and would have been gone by now). |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for May 12 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun May 13 22:45:38 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for May 12, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 12 07:16:56 2018. Thank you for this reminder. Very sad indeed. But it is necessary for us railfans and subfans to keep these "Dates of Infamy" in our minds... |
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Re: World Trade Center |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun May 13 23:35:58 2018, in response to World Trade Center, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 13 22:35:32 2018. neither the foundations nor the several floors of the Hudson Terminal buildings could have supported towers of the WTC height. |
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Re: World Trade Center |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 14 00:42:26 2018, in response to Re: World Trade Center, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun May 13 23:35:58 2018. Who said anything about that? The Hudson Terminal was not even in the way of the Twin Towers’ original locations.That having been said, of course they weren’t going to integrate the Hudson Terminal into the WTC. This was in the era when Penn Station was torn down. |
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Re: World Trade Center |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 14 09:06:07 2018, in response to Re: World Trade Center, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 14 00:42:26 2018. That is true:The Port Authority probably was concerned having two older buildings (even if they had just undergone a big-time renovation) as part of the WTC would have been a detriment to landing tenants for the new WTC. Back then, people wanted everything "shiny and new" and didn't care about the past. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 14 09:07:40 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 13 11:06:25 2018. It's the same as everyone elses.The point was to show if they had kept the EL how it likely would have been today if all the branches had been kept. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon May 14 11:40:17 2018, in response to Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 12 21:24:19 2018. The Third Avenue El was doomed. Robert Moses wanted it gone so the city could save operating costs that he would then use on his bridges, tunnels and slum clearance programs. In addition, store owners wanted it gone because they felt the darkness caused by the elevated structure kept Third Avenue from becoming an economically viable thoroughfare. As late as the mid 1950's, Third Avenue was still a place of seedy bars, dingy apartment buildings, mom and pop stores, Chinese restaurants and pawn brokers. You have to admit that Third Avenue today is much more elegant in the midtown area than it was 60 years ago. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by AlM on Mon May 14 11:59:21 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Mitch45 on Mon May 14 11:40:17 2018. As late as the mid 1950's, Third Avenue was still a place of seedy bars, dingy apartment buildings, mom and pop stores, Chinese restaurants and pawn brokers.Below 39th Street, the transformation away from that has been extremely gradual and is not complete yet (though sadly it's getting more complete every year). Still some of all of the above except pawn brokers. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 14 15:30:40 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 14 09:07:40 2018. The South Ferry branch was closed on Dec 22nd, 1950, because it had never been rebuilt and it could not even use the "Q" cars. The SF spur was so old that it had to be inspected for possible structural damage after five 3-car trains of Composites used the spur, On June 10th, 1940, to head up 9th Ave (no problems were discovered). They would become the first cars for the Polo Grounds shuttle. Later, the then-new NYC Transit Authority wanted to close the rest of the Manhattan section, south of 149th St, on Dec 31st, 1953. After a public outcry, they waited until May 12th, 1955, when there was less opposition. Ironically, the 2nd Ave subway plans were all but dead when the bond money was diverted to make post-WW II upgrades and to pay for the Rockaway, Pitkin-Liberty, and Culver connections. So, the TA managed to convince enough people that the Lexington Ave subway could handle the increased ridership from the 3rd Ave el. I realize that the, "What if...?," musings will continue about the old el lines, but, in reality, they are gone forever! |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon May 14 16:42:40 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by AlM on Mon May 14 11:59:21 2018. True, but people only really cared about midtown and the Financial District. Some parts of lower 2nd Avenue are pretty dingy too. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon May 14 18:57:53 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Mitch45 on Mon May 14 16:42:40 2018. I went Transit Fanning in the early 1970's or late 1960's by myself. I rode the #8 line in the Bronx. The cars bucked and moaned , but we made it. When we got to the end of line , I took a regular Subway back.. I don't recall the fact routing of the #8, but it was a short shuttle.Anybody that can help, thanks in advance. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 14 21:39:32 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Mitch45 on Mon May 14 11:40:17 2018. And that was the problem:If people had the foresight to see what would become in the future, they might not have been so quick to tear down the 3rd Avenue EL, as today, even with the SAS you'd see healthy ridership on both line (though I would think we'd be looking at a third rebuild down the road to convert the line to BMT/IND so it can handle larger cars so the SAS could also run on the Bronx portion). |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue May 15 06:05:47 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon May 14 18:57:53 2018. I just looked at a map, and it looks like I boarded the #8 at 3rd Av. and 149th St. (#2 & #5 lines),and rode to Gun Hill Rd. (#2), and (#5)-part time service.. I rode the #2 line back to midtown Manhattan. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 15 14:26:51 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 14 21:39:32 2018. As a child, I remember riding in my father's car under the 3rd Ave el in Manhattan. It was not easy to navigate, especially during rush hours. Traffic today is much heavier. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 15 14:37:35 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Mitch45 on Mon May 14 11:40:17 2018. The only thing that Robert Moses wanted was to cut back the South Ferry Branch to Chatham Square with a tail track just south of the station on each level. This was when he was still pushing his Brooklyn-Battery Bridge project. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by randyo on Tue May 15 16:49:04 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 14 21:39:32 2018. Since the 3 Av el was connected to the IRT Wh Pl Rd Line in the Bx, it’s doubtful it would have been converted to BMT/IND specs, but even an upgrade to handle 10 car IRT sized trains would have been a great improvement. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed May 16 00:38:39 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Elkeeper on Mon May 14 15:30:40 2018. I believe that this is the period when the IRT lines were extended to 10-car trains and stations.Mike |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 01:40:51 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 16 00:38:39 2018. Not quite. It would be several years before the N/B east side platforms S/O G/Cent would be extended and about the same time frame for the west side platforms N/O T/Sq which were done in late 1958 in preparation for the 1959 west side IRT route changes. The west side platform extensions were done before the east side ones and the west side platforms S/O T/Sq and the east side platforms N/O G/Cent which were only 8 cars long were done even later. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 16 10:10:25 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 01:40:51 2018. Right.That's why Worth Street (which closed in 1962) was lengthened southbound but not northbound. |
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Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 14:32:59 2018, in response to Re: Had the 3rd Avenue EL Survived, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 01:40:51 2018. Either way, ridership on the 3rd Ave el's South Ferry Branch had declined after the War. The narrower streets south of the Bowery didn't help its cause, either. |
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