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Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018

Internal MTA Document Claims This

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Q4 on Tue Mar 13 08:06:59 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

I have seen many posts here complaining about the timers, especially the one(s)on the 8th Ave. Line between 59th and 125th.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 13 10:46:38 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

About time this issue got into the mainstream media.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 13 10:53:31 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

Shear brilyunce.

“It’s not that complicated,” a source with direct knowledge of the situation who asked not to be identified told the Village Voice. “The trains are slower because they slowed the trains down.”
Even the VV gets in on the anonymous source gig.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 11:21:54 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 13 10:46:38 2018.

But the LION holds the solution, just what they will not listen to their LION.

1) Trains USED to be able to stop in the blocks provided.
2) Trains used to have iron brake shoes.
3) Today they have composite shoes.
4) Today the trains are heavier.
5) The trains cannot stop as quickly.

ERGO:
A) The problem is NOT in the signals. They worked before, they still work now.
B) The problem is in the brakes : As efficient they are not.

SOLUTION:
ADD TRACK BRAKES TO THE CARS.
STOP them real fast they will, but not so fast as to throw everybody to the floor, only just as fast as the trains used to stop before things became today.

Yes Track Brakes wear rails faster, BUT NOT IF they are only used BIE (and for parking).

Instead of working on every structure, in every tunnel, simply add these while trains are in the yard. Whole fleet can be fixed in one year without any track being taken out of service.

Then we can put the Rabbid back in Rapid Transit.

ROAR

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 13 12:11:46 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 11:21:54 2018.

SOLUTION:
ADD TRACK BRAKES TO THE CARS


Yeah; there you go. Make everything yet more expensive.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Mar 13 12:46:11 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 13 12:11:46 2018.

On a million $+ subway car, some 100 year old tech brakes are not a big expense. They hardly ever get used, they don't cause flat spots in the wheels and they can be adjusted up to pretty sharp levels of stoppin' powah'.
Conclusion: If they won't/are too lazy/throw up excuses/actually have some ghost of a reason for the wheel brakes to work right, add track brakes, and get the trains movin'. Half a century ago they could hit 60mph, now they'd be passed by a horse.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 12:48:50 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 11:21:54 2018.

The problem IS the signals.

They keep putting in more and more timers.

bark, bark, bark.


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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 12:58:31 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 13 12:11:46 2018.

like it is cheaper to replace all of the signals?

ROAR

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 12:59:42 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 12:48:50 2018.

Bass Ackwards!

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 13:11:16 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 12:59:42 2018.

You speak just like all these MTA spokespeople, who know what it takes to operate a REAL train.

You (think) you know what it entails to get a train from Point A to Point B, repeating the process for 34 years, experiencing the longer running time due to speed restricting grade timers, even on upgrades, which increase the end to end running times.

bark, bark, bark

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 13:12:34 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 13:11:16 2018.

EDIT:

........who DON'T know what it takes.......

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 13 13:37:17 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

I have to ask then: who exactly is responsible for where these timers go? And why hasn't anybody planned for the fact that the travel time will be longer?

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 13 13:43:37 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

One thing they also forgot to mention was how the workers who were killed a little over a year ago caused trains to slow down even further around curves. Northbound F and M trains between Bway Lafayette and W 4 St are a prime example of this, though sometimes the operators go a bit faster than they should.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 14:15:54 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 13 13:37:17 2018.

Question 1: not sure.

Question 2: I've seen notices of signal modifications during my time down there. Every time they said "No effect on running time". One problem: they forgot to take into account that all of them combined DOES have an effect on running time. Therefore, running time has been changed, but changed not enough.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Mar 13 14:34:01 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

David Greenberger, that's a familiar name.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 13 15:29:05 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 11:21:54 2018.

If the iron brake shoes did a better job of stopping the trains, why not go back to those?

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Mar 13 15:39:44 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 13 10:53:31 2018.

You really don't get why anonymous sources exist, or why they are anonymous.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:26:09 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 13 11:21:54 2018.

Track brakes aren’t needed for parking trains. The current hand brakes of the older equipment and the self applying brakes that the NTTs have are just fine. As for the composition shoes vs steel shoes, I think that if the inshot valves that supply brake cylinder air to the brake shoes were adjusted composition shoed would be just as effective. The Willy B accident was a result of the signal system that was there at the time being the original one that was designed for shorter trains of el cars and never upgraded for the longer trains of steel subway cars that eventually operated there. wit signals properly spaced for the maximum length of trains operated on a line or division, trains wouldn’t have to be artificially overslowed down.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 13 17:21:19 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:26:09 2018.

The Willy B accident was a result of the signal system that was there at the time being the original one that was designed for shorter trains of el cars and never upgraded for the longer trains of steel subway cars that eventually operated there. wit signals properly spaced for the maximum length of trains operated on a line or division, trains wouldn’t have to be artificially overslowed down.

No.

The NTSB ran tests with similar equipment on the Williamsburg Bridge. The the tests showed: the train hit the tripper at 34 mph and the emergency braking rate was 1.8 mph/sec. The train was supposed to have an emergency braking rate of 3.0 mph/sec. The BU gate cars were supposed to have an emergency braking rate of 2.0 mph/sec.

NYCT's CYA excuse was that the newer trains were too fast for the old signal system. Their "proof" was that the designed maximum attainable speed (MAS) was supposed to be 28 mph when the tripper was hit, not the 34 mph recorded by the NTSB. Going through the high school physics calculations, the train would have stopped 44.6 feet short of the collision point with the existing brakes.

NYCT conveniently did not mention that had the emergency brakes performed as per the 3.0 mph/sec spec, the train would have stopped 48.5 feet short of the collision point.

The NTSB also ran a test where full service, rather than emergency, braking was applied at the tripper point. The train stopped 126 feet short of the collision point.

Having successfully dodged the gross negligence bullet, NYCT had to live with its consequences. One of the NTSB's recommendations was to include speed control on all signals. This is the policy NYCT is following. This would not be a problem, if the speed control were set to the 3.0 mph/sec emergency braking specification. It would also not be a problem, if the T/O's were not super cautious and go even slower than the nominal timed speed rating. However, the speeds were probably set too low and possibly would trip a train if it were going at the the stated control speed.

Another NTSB recommendation was to apply the dynamic brakes, in addition to the air brakes, in an emergency. This could have been implemented on the NTT trains, which have a different truck design. It hasn't.

the signal system that was there at the time being the original one that was designed for shorter trains of el cars and never upgraded for the longer trains of steel subway cars

As an unindicted co-conspirator used to say, "let's make this perfectly clear."

Collision occur between the last car of the leader an the first car of the follower. How many cars are ahead of the leader's last car or how many cars are behind the follower's first car don't count.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 13 18:01:00 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 13 14:15:54 2018.

Referring to my other other post on this: that slowdown north of Bway Lafayette can be enough to add a minute. The trains go at around 5 mph from the start of the curve all the way into W 4 St.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Mar 13 19:32:57 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

nice to see the more or less mainstream media is on to the problem.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Mar 13 19:36:19 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Mar 13 14:34:01 2018.

long ago SubTalker IINM

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Mar 13 19:43:50 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Mar 13 14:34:01 2018.

I know who he is and I met him, once. Nice guy, and I’m glad he is doing well.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 20:46:27 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 13 17:21:19 2018.

The truck design has no bearing on whether dynamic brakes are applied in emergency or not. During a BIE, the emergency contactor disconnects all 600V power from the motors thus disabling the dynamic braking. If the emergency contactors were rewired to allow the dynamic braking to remain in effect while only the motive power were disabled, the the dynamic (or regenerative) braking could assist in stopping the train.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Keeping the RAPID in Rapid Transit on Wed Mar 14 01:37:16 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 13 18:01:00 2018.

That 'slowdown' isn't the result of worker deaths, but 'track flagging' protecting workers installing a new 'Master Tower' just south of the W 4 St station. From personal experience, work is definitely done there between 9 am and 4 pm Mon-Fri (can't speak about other hours-no knowledge). The slowdown affects both 6 Av and 8 Av trunk lines (A, B, C, D, E, F, M). The rule when moving trains through flagging areas is 10 mph *or less*. Since a t/o will be *majorly disciplined* if found traveling at 11 mph through a work zone, many have decided 'if I go at 5 mph I'll never get in trouble.' :)

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 08:54:25 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 13 17:21:19 2018.

The braking rate was reduced because BIE events (often caused by trolls pulling the emergency cords in the cars) would cause injuries amoung standing passengers. While the cord pulling is not longer the scourge it once was, any emergency application (trip stop, etc) would still cause passenger injuries.

The mechanism of the emergency braking rate reduction was replacement of cast iron shoes with composite shoes. I believe this also reduced dust contamination in the system.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 08:59:17 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

From the mouth of an MTA front office official, the timers enforce posted speed limits and other rulebook defined operating practices. In the past normal operation would run counter to the methods perscribed in the rulebook, enabling the Union, that is otherwise barred from striking, to engage in Rulebook slowdowns.

The MTA has been on a decades long quest to remove the threat of rulebook slowdowns by slowing down the system proactively. Moreover, timers remove am element of skill from train operation, further reducing the power of the workers since anyone could be hired off the street and still run the trains safely. The term used was "manual ATO".

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 14 09:39:06 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 08:54:25 2018.

The braking rate was reduced because BIE events (often caused by trolls pulling the emergency cords in the cars) would cause injuries amoung standing passengers...

Why the emergency braking rate was reduced is immaterial. Knowingly operating equipment in an unsafe manner is negligence. NYCT lied itself out of that dilemma and is now paying the consequences for maintaining that charade.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 14 12:21:23 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 08:59:17 2018.

Thanks for making this point. Very similar to mickeyD having timers on the french fry machines so "cooks" needn't be trained to actually do anything other than push a button, or a cash register with icons of the offerings at a snack bar so "clerks" needn't be numerate. This is a stupid way to run any organization.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 12:31:57 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 14 09:39:06 2018.

Why is a fully failsafe ATS system required to meet your definition of safety? Buses have no automated safety features at all. Does that represent negligence?

If there was an issue it was the lack of procedural speed control upon passing yellow signals and speed restrictions. This is what I said about rulebook slowdowns. The system was generally operated in a manner that ran contrary to established procedures in order to maintain performance levels. Specifically by using skill dependent late braking. Removing operator discretion through timers and slower equipment speeds eliminated rulebook slowdowns, reduced operator skill requirements and reduces the risk of accidents.

The Willy accident gave MTA management an excuse to change train operation from an art to something programmatic.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 14 12:52:37 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 12:31:57 2018.

Buses have no automated safety features at all. Does that represent negligence?

Apparently the courts think so. Each NYCT and MTA bus racks up $25K in liability costs each year. This is substantially more than the industry average.

The Willy accident gave MTA management an excuse to change train operation from an art to something programmatic.

Train operation was never art; it was always rote.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 14:00:25 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 14 12:21:23 2018.

It's not stupid if cost reduction is their priority.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 14 14:10:07 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Mar 13 14:34:01 2018.

Yep...I remember him from Subtalk. I also e-mailed him privately a few times

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Part 2 of Story Says MTA's 'SAP' Won't Work......Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slo

Posted by heypaul on Wed Mar 14 14:13:45 2018, in response to Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by heypaul on Tue Mar 13 07:40:03 2018.

A Slap at SAP

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 14 14:21:54 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Mar 13 14:34:01 2018.

Hah. That's why he doesn't post here. :)

Good for him that he's working on the real thing and not just playing at it like the rest of us.





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Re: Part 2 of Story Says MTA's 'SAP' Won't Work......Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slo

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 14 14:29:27 2018, in response to Part 2 of Story Says MTA's 'SAP' Won't Work......Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slo, posted by heypaul on Wed Mar 14 14:13:45 2018.

Classic. Define the problem with fraudulent stats, do abit of voodoo and declare success. Dealing with the excessive deployment of sped timers, abysmal morale, stupid behavior (the two workers who decided to crtoss the tracks at Hoyt instead of taking the safe route via the stairways as example), those are real challenges not easily overcome.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 14 14:33:47 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 14:00:25 2018.

No, it IS stupid both individually and as a nation to foster a culture of bi-pedal drones who are barely useful as employees. They will be the first to be put out of work as robots become cheaper and then we will have to figure out how to teach them to be actually useful--something that should have happened while they were still in school.


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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 14 15:26:39 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Keeping the RAPID in Rapid Transit on Wed Mar 14 01:37:16 2018.

I doubt that even the most sophisticated radar can detect 1 MPH above the limit. Where is the new master tower being installed? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for it to be installed on the mezzanine between the 2 levels?

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 14 22:33:50 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 14 14:21:54 2018.

Just did some stalking on Seethrough NY... he has pretty much my dream job.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jace on Wed Mar 14 23:57:19 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 14 08:54:25 2018.

Whether braking in full service or emergency, the train uses the same composite shoes to stop. The real question then was why was the full service braking rate higher than the emergency rate. Rather than addressing this issue publicly, they instead decided to tackle an equipment problem by 'fixing' the signal system. The comparative strength of Car Equipment allowed them to deflect the issue onto Signals. Inter-departmental rivalry was allowed to go unchecked by weak/unquestioning senior management.

I should say that NYCT is not risk averse per se, they simply do not want any bad publicity as it quickly becomes political fodder. Their biggest concern following the bridge accident was to make absolutely sure that this type of accident never occurred again. They've achieved this, so no one can say that the timer policy has not been effective; it's just the cost in doing so is only now becoming apparent to the public.


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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Keeping the RAPID in Rapid Transit on Thu Mar 15 00:29:02 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 14 15:26:39 2018.

Doubt all you wish, but that's the scuttlebutt on the job. I'm not interested in trying to find out how sophisticated Transit's radar might be.
From what I've seen, the formerly open areas between A1 and A3 Track and A2 and A4 Track just s/o W4 are gradually being filled in with all sorts of material.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 15 07:33:40 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jace on Wed Mar 14 23:57:19 2018.

Whether braking in full service or emergency, the train uses the same composite shoes to stop. The real question then was why was the full service braking rate higher than the emergency rate.

Full service braking uses the dynamic brakes; emergency braking does not. That's the difference. Air brake application is identical for full service and emergency braking.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Mar 15 09:20:00 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 14 12:52:37 2018.

Hmm, I don't recall seeing Power/Coast/Brake signs on the NYCS. The art was knowing how far beyond the documented practices one could go without causing an unsafe situation.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jace on Thu Mar 15 10:02:55 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 15 07:33:40 2018.

Air brake application is not identical - how can you have the same brake rates with one fully pneumatic and the other blended? The answer is in part in the report. Read it carefully; you'll see too that this response does not answer the question as to why the emergency brake rates were too low.

The brakes were modified during GOH but not tested until at least four years after the cars were released for service. The R40s did not pass stopping distance tests then (in 1993), nor in 1995 just after the wreck. Other cars with composition shoes passed. Somehow the R40s passed the tests nine months following the wreck after NYCT insisted that the 1995 tests were not representative.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Mar 15 11:52:51 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jace on Thu Mar 15 10:02:55 2018.

I know that on other equipment, an emergency application disables the dynamic brake for some reason or another. Signaling distances have to be calculated on the straight pneumatic rate which often results in massively conservative signaling distances and speeds compared to the performance a railcar has in blended braking mode.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Thu Mar 15 12:00:34 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Mar 15 09:20:00 2018.

There used to be 'C' signs (for coasting) on the Queens Blvd express line. Made the run, especially 179th St bound, about as fast as current trains go. Where else they were I don't remember.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 15 15:23:39 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by Keeping the RAPID in Rapid Transit on Thu Mar 15 00:29:02 2018.

Thanks for the info.

What are they going to do with the tower on the southbound 6th Ave platform?

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 15 16:50:54 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Thu Mar 15 12:00:34 2018.

The entire system used to have “C” for coast signs except that the BMT coast signs were simply blank white signs. IRT and IND prewar cars also had coasting clocks to record the amount of coasting the trains did vs powered operation and according to an old timer, at least the IRT used to award bonuses to M/M who did the greatest amount of coasting.

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Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down

Posted by heypaul on Thu Mar 15 20:06:14 2018, in response to Re: Village Voice Article Explains: The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 15 16:50:54 2018.

Back in Jan 1917, a motorman Butler makes an impassioned plea for motormen and conductors to cooperate with the use of coasting clocks.

Coasting and Cooperation

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