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Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018




Approximately a half a billion dollars will be spent for a flyover junction just north of Belmont here in Chicago, to save riders no more than 90 seconds.


I realize that most junctions on both the New York elevated and Subway are already flyover junctions. My question to the New Yorkers, when your flyover junctions were built, were there already buildings there that were razed to build them, or were they built at a time when land was barren, and no need to demolish anything?

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:01:04 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

CBS Chicago

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:01:54 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

ABC Chicago

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 11:15:12 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

Offhand, I can't think of that many elevated flying junctions. And I think most of them stay above the avenue that the regular tracks are above, and therefore don't require additional private property.

Here's where the 5 splits off from the 2 in the Bronx (ignore the "Oak Point" label). That doesn't look like it ever had buildings underneath it.




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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 11:17:22 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

During the construction of the subway (especially the IND), there were a lot of buildings demolished to make way for the subways and their curves and switches.

80+ years later, you can find a number of parks and parking lots where land was cleared for subway construction.

In the more extreme examples, blocks of Greenwich Village had new Avenues cut through them for the Duel Contracts and IND lines.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 11:36:24 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 11:15:12 2018.

Ignoring yard leads, how many other elevated junctions are there on the NYC Subway?
Myrtle (flat)
Broadway Junction
Brighton/Culver
Queens Plaza (BMT/IRT non-revenue)



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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 11:47:58 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 11:36:24 2018.

Lefferts/Rockaway
Hammels



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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:52:54 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 11:15:12 2018.

Thank you Alm. That pic was cool.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:57:46 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 11:36:24 2018.

Thank you. Isn't Myrtle also a flyover.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:58:07 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 11:47:58 2018.

Yes, thank you.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 12:03:03 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:57:46 2018.

As originally built, Myrtle had 2 lines crossing over each other at different elevations, with a block long two track elevated connection between them. I am guessing around 10 houses were demolished for the connector.

The junction with the connector itself is flat.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 12:07:30 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 12:03:03 2018.

Isn't the Myrtle junction relatively on one the newer junctions?

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 12:14:43 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 12:07:30 2018.

From Wikipedia:

On July 29, 1914, the connection to the Broadway-Brooklyn Line was opened, allowing Myrtle Avenue Line trains to operate via the Williamsburg Bridge.[8] Construction on this connection began in August 1913.[9] This service became BMT 10 in 1924, and the original Myrtle Avenue Line service to Park Row became BMT 11, later referred to as M and MJ.

That would put it right in the middle of current junctions in terms of age, which makes sense since half of the current system was built or re-built during the Dual Contracts era.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 8 12:17:47 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

Unlike Chicago, almost all NYC els were built over streets - not on/over private rights of way. Therefore, very little private property (with or without buildings on them) was required to build or modify them. Probably the biggest acquisition of private property came, when the els were electrified. Substations on what was private property were required.

The biggest conversions for at-grade to flyover junctions took place during the Dual Contracts era. Chatham Square and Bway-Jct come to mind. It will take a bit of research to see, if any private property was involved.

Ironically, subway construction involved a lot more private property acquisition on built up land. Most notable was construction of the 8th Ave Subway. A lot of buildings were demolished for extending 6th Ave from W 3rd St (its original origin) to Franklin St. and widening Houston and Church Streets.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 12:29:49 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 8 12:17:47 2018.

The demolition of private buildings for the Belmont flyover pales in comparison to what was bulldozed to build the Orange Line to the junction w/ the Green Line. The "slum clearance" to put in the Congress (now Eisenhower) and Dan Ryan expressways w/median rapid transit was huge. The resistance that has delayed the Belmont upgrade is because the 'hood has more political clout.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 12:35:39 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 12:29:49 2018.

You're referring to 17th St junction right?

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 12:36:36 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 12:29:49 2018.

Well apparently there wasn't enough clout to stop it.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 12:53:04 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 12:35:39 2018.

yes

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:02:48 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 12:53:04 2018.

I don't think that many buildings if any were demolished to build it.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 13:04:46 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 11:52:54 2018.

It's Google aerial view. You can zoom in if you want.


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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 13:28:04 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:02:48 2018.

While I don't have platt maps of the previous conditions, my general memory of the destruction of buildings on the South Side (spent many summers of my youth in South Shore in the 50s) is that entire blocks were often bulldozed. When CTA posted the cab ride videos I was shocked at how many vacant lots have replaced buildings along the L.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 8 13:28:48 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 11:17:22 2018.

Yup.
Today,a deep bore TBM would be used to save the property above the line in most cases...and that's even if the project got of the ground.
The SAS is the prime example of this. A curve from second Ave to 125th St would have taken most property along the row..yet TBM tech will eliminate that need.

The South Jamaica line would have done the same thing for its storage yard, stations,portals...mass property acquired for the row.

Too bad it was permanently deferred.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 13:38:09 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 8 13:28:48 2018.

Imagine the dollar value of the property that would have been needed for a shallow curve on the LIRR East Side Access from 63rd and 2nd to Park and the mid-50s!



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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:43:23 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 13:04:46 2018.

Thanks I did. And one of these visits, I'm going to check out the Bronx Zoo.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:45:22 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 12:14:43 2018.

Thank you. I was under the impression that the junction wasn't built to just years prior to the closing of the Myrtle Elevated to downtown Brooklyn.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:48:41 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 13:28:04 2018.

You could be right. On the north east corner of State and 18th is a playground, which probably wasn't there prior to the building of that junction.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:50:48 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 12:29:49 2018.

You're right, the construction of all Chicago Expressways, except for the Stevenson, displace thousands more. Disrupted entire neighborhoods.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Thu Mar 8 14:10:27 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by LA Scott on Thu Mar 8 11:36:24 2018.

The Brighton/Culver junction used to be at grade - Culver & Brighton locals on the lower level, Brighton Expresses on the upper level. The lower level junction was closed in the 50s.

--Mark

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Dave on Thu Mar 8 14:16:33 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:43:23 2018.

Well worth a visit, for sure.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 14:20:07 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:48:41 2018.

There had been an 18th St station on the North South Thru Route, though gone by the 1952 CTA map in my collection.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 15:43:31 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Dave on Thu Mar 8 14:16:33 2018.

Too bad it's not free.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 8 17:18:14 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

There was a lot of NIMBY opposition to that, but I agree it should be done.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Thu Mar 8 17:23:52 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 14:20:07 2018.

Chicagomotorman is right, Jackson Pk. is wrong. The only buildings torn down for the 17th Jct was the one on the northeast corner. And...the Jct. was built for the Dan Ryan...NOT FOR THE Orange line. Thestation at 18th St. was closed in 1949, twenty before and it was located on the south side of the street. In constructing the line between the ROW and S. State St. there were numerous building torn down along W. 18th St.

DH

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Dave on Thu Mar 8 17:33:39 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 15:43:31 2018.

General admission is free all day on Wednesdays at the Bronx Zoo.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 18:45:14 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Dave on Thu Mar 8 17:33:39 2018.

Lincoln Park Zoo is free everyday.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 18:45:55 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 8 17:18:14 2018.

At a half a billion?

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 8 18:55:06 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 13:38:09 2018.

Yup.
The project would have never got off the ground.


The main reason why so many projects never began,is property oweners didn't want it..no accesment..no taxes...no noise... no construction.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 8 18:57:07 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 18:45:55 2018.

Well, it looks like Chicago costs are as ridiculous as ours for anything.

Imagine what the BMT Bway Jct complex would cost to build today.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Mar 8 20:20:37 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:43:23 2018.



I'm going to check out the Bronx Zoo.

Don't forget to ride the monorail.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 20:30:20 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 18:45:14 2018.

yeah, well when I was a kid Museum of Science & Industry was free, too.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 20:34:25 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 18:45:55 2018.

YES. When I moved out of Chicago, the Ravenswood was a part time line w/ short trains. Now it is busy all day. If CTA can ever get any real money together, it should be extended tho connect to the Blue Linde alongwith many more miles os other routes.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 8 21:49:43 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 11:15:12 2018.

One flat junction that was converted to flying in New York was Chatham Square (gone now). Chatham Square is and always was a large open space, so I wouldn't be surprised if no property takings were required.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by zac on Fri Mar 9 07:35:26 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 13:04:46 2018.

Next time I'm in The Bronx on my bike I'm going to check out the E180 St/ex NYWB station house. You can drop a street view right in front of it from the aerial view.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by zac on Fri Mar 9 07:42:22 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 8 12:17:47 2018.

And both 6th Ave south of W 3rd and Houston Streets are avoided by pedestrians because of it. They are difficult to cross, the buildings on one side or the other have blank walls, few street level businesses, etc... Yes, there are a few places that have activity but for the most part they are pedestrian deserts.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Q4 on Fri Mar 9 08:33:28 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 13:50:48 2018.

So did the a stretch of the Cross Bronx Expressway. It was carved right through the middle of a neighborhood (inexplicably according to the book "The Power Broker" IIRC). Many apartment houses were destroyed for its construction when there was a better, less costly and intrusive alternative available (and would have kept the expressway straighter).

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Mar 9 09:14:04 2018, in response to Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 10:59:43 2018.

Wait, wasn't Belmont Interlocking completely rebuilt to increase capacity just a few years ago?

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Alan Follett on Sat Mar 10 17:37:56 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Mar 8 18:45:14 2018.

One of the few zoos remaining free. Among big cities, the others are Washington’s National Zoo; St. Paul’s Como Park; and St. Louis. I grew up within walking distance of Lincoln Park Zoo, where I was practically raised by Mike the polar bear and the Geoffroy’s cats.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 10 19:31:16 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 20:30:20 2018.

I was there once, on December 19, 1965.

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Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 10 21:12:33 2018, in response to Re: Question About New York Subway Junctions, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 10 19:31:16 2018.

I cannot count the hours I spent there; not only watching the Museum * Santa Fe but also the submarine movies and dozens of other displays. Thecoal mine was coolk, but so was the "yesteryear street" with a nickelodeon, cobblestone street and other neat stuff.
Decades ago they had cutaway dioramas showing the WPA funded sewerupgrades as well as many others which have gone as they addnewer stuff. In the 60s MSI was one of 3 video phone link locations--another was in a storefront opposite Penn Station.

Still a great place for kids and adults.

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