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| Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? (1468257) | |
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Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Mar 5 04:06:48 2018, in response to Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 01:17:19 2018. When, in anticipation of the LIRR West Side yard, the old New York Central yards were levelled in the '80s a 3/4 circle trench was excavated about 20' into the ground. That's what the Empire tunnel was built in, cast in place and then backfilled on the sides. The underside of it sits on pads on the top of the Hudson tunnels and the WSY subgrade sits on top of it. So if you had a practical construction method for working that close under the WSY you could look into building inside or outside of the existing circle. Inside raises questions of radius and outside raise questions of clearance to the trench Amtrak built for our uncertain future Hudson tunnels. The Hudson Yards building foundations you mentioned would remain a question in both cases.Bill |
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| (1468272) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Mar 5 06:33:02 2018, in response to Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 01:17:19 2018. spend how many $$$ millions to save 5 minutes just about twice a year when trains meet in that area ?? |
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| (1468276) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Mar 5 08:20:06 2018, in response to Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 01:17:19 2018. Short answer: NoSlightly longer answer: Anything is possible with enough money and political will, but No. "What might have been" answer: Before Hudson Yards construction started, it would have been much easier, but still disruptive to LIRR operations. |
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| (1468279) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Mar 5 09:24:32 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Mar 5 06:33:02 2018. It precludes frequent commuter service from the Hudson Line to Penn. Obviously that is far from the highest priority facing the NY Metro area. |
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| (1468316) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 12:10:00 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Bill West on Mon Mar 5 04:06:48 2018. I spent a little time looking at the NYP track map from the Gateway proposal after posting this question. Is there any way track 5A could start a dive immediately upon clearing the switches (basically back at 9th) and be able to pass under the North River and WSY approach tracks as it turns north? From there it looks like it's almost entirely that new park/plaza they built as part of the Hudson Yards project and it could possiblymerge with the West Side Line around 40th st. Only question there is where exactly is the new 7 ROW and at what depth. |
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| (1468317) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 12:15:58 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by LA Scott on Mon Mar 5 08:20:06 2018. What if track 5A were to start diving down as it departs NYP. That puts it below any of the current Hudson Yards construction, no? If there's enough lead for it to make a sufficient dive to pass under the rest of the tracks before turning north, do you think it could be more likely? After turning north it seems it would line up to run under that new park/plaza they built as part of the Hudson Yards project. The 2 main questions left are how much vertical clearance would there be as it passes under the tracks and could it come back up high enough to not cause an issue with the 7 ROW, and that might not even be an issue |
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| (1468321) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Mar 5 12:54:17 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 12:10:00 2018. Why? |
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| (1468335) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 14:16:37 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Mon Mar 5 09:24:32 2018. Actually, back when Peter Stangl was MTA chairman and the west side connection was still in the planning stage, he was asked about M/N commuter service using it. |
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| (1468340) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Mar 5 14:37:48 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 14:16:37 2018. They should have made it 2 tracks then. |
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| (1468363) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Mar 5 16:34:04 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Mon Mar 5 12:54:17 2018. Considering that the North River lines dive at 2% in the 1500'west to 11th Ave, such an Empire line addition would have to be around 4% in the 1800' from 9th to 11th, that's steep. I'm guessing that the existing Empire line is relatively level and the WSY lead rises.Here's a PRR profile from the 1910l ASCE papers. Find 11-10-9th at the right. The horizontal lines are 10' vertical spacing, you'd need 20'. WSY's roadbed is roughly on the original street surface. The Empire line would be in that "Sand Gavel & Loam" space. For the 7 line, I think it's under Hudson Blvd. The profile suggests it would have to be under the North River line. So, sorry but I think you're running out of options here. Bill |
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| (1468396) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Mar 5 20:28:27 2018, in response to Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 01:17:19 2018. The single track section is pretty short. You could probably add in the 6-8 TPH weekend MNRR Hudson line traffic through it without much difficulty. The biggest problem is no tracks in NYP to put the trains; an empire connection train can wait on that single track for up to 15 minutes waiting for a track in NYP during the PM rush hour. |
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| (1468412) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 5 21:47:31 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Mar 5 20:28:27 2018. for starters, cuttimg the dwell on Amtrak trains which are not terminating would help. |
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| (1468426) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Mar 5 23:21:47 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Mar 5 20:28:27 2018. There's more behind what I'm thinking than that but I'd rather not get into it before I know whether or not the 2nd track is physically possible. Without it my idea is probably DOA |
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| (1468431) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 00:45:47 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 5 21:47:31 2018. They could cut the dwell on Amtrak (and NJT, for that matter) trains originating too, same way LIRR does it. Announce the track before the train arrives from the yard. |
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| (1468433) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Mar 6 01:04:29 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 00:45:47 2018. yup. |
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| (1468434) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Mar 6 01:48:54 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Bill West on Mon Mar 5 16:34:04 2018. The link you attached doesn't like being a link, but I think I was able to find the profile you were talking about on google. Your math seems a bit off, but nonetheless, it appears you're right. Basically from 9th Av to midblock between 10th and 11th is approx 1,375 ft, which at a 2% grade gives us a total drop of only 27.5 feet, which is not enough to clear the North River tube which appears to have dropped about 20 ft in that same distance according to the image (although if you take the average of the written grades, .4% and 1.93% and apply that to the same roughly 1,375 ft from 9th Av to midblock 10th/11th you get just over 16 ft, but still too low).From what I've been told, yes, as you presumed, the WSY leads rise (and at a pretty steep grade from what I'm told. I'd have to double check, but I heard once a train gapped out and got stuck because it didn't have enough momentum to continue up the grade into the yard to the point where it could draw off the 3rd rail again). My previous presumption had been that the Empire Connection passed under the North River Tubes approach, but given this I guess it is actually threaded between WSY and the North River Tubes approach. Can anyone confirm this? In which case then, the question is how early does the Empire Connection actually turn north, as in did they have it start to cross everything at the very moment it was able to clear both, or did it continue for a bit and then turn (if the latter, then is there enough space to put in another tunnel north/east of it that can both pass over North River Tube approach and under WSY?). Or an even more basic idea, given that the Empire Connection passes under WSY already, and, IINM, WSY is the lowest point for any Hudson Yards construction project, could the tunnel just simply be expanded out and be made large enough for 2 tracks? The 7 however is most definitely not under Hudson Blvd. When you ente the escalators from the park, you're already west of Hudson Blvd and you're continuing west, down the escalator and along the tunnel that leads to the actual platform, so I'm pretty sure the 7 is actually under 11th Av, so running this 2nd Empire Connection track under Hudson Blvd and the adjacent park on its west side could very well still be possible. |
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| (1468439) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Mar 6 04:08:01 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Mar 6 01:48:54 2018. Nimby, you're trying so hard on the details that you are missing the broad point ie that there is probably not enough room. Changing my eyeball of 1500' to 11th into 1375' from 9th is not significant (@2%=2.5') so is changing my round figure 2% to 1.93% (1'). Ditto moving the 7 line from an approach down Hudson Blvd to a platform under 11th. That 0.4% grade is from mid station to the last crossovers before the tunnel, the bulk of the grade is the 1.93%.My first post already said that the Empire line passes over the North River tunnels and under WSY's subgrade, I saw a picture of it a trade magazine when it was being built. Google Earth and ARC/Gateway plans show that the turn north is roughly under 11th Ave. Room inside or outside of the existing curve seems the only possibility but even that is doubtful. Bill |
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| (1468454) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 09:20:39 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Bill West on Mon Mar 5 16:34:04 2018. ???I asked why, not how. No one has answered why this would be an important project. |
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| (1468456) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Mar 6 10:04:36 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 09:20:39 2018. There are a number of people who would like to see MNRR traffic using the connection to provide service to NYP. That is the driving force behind a large enough increase in traffic to make this the least bit sensible (regardless of technical feasibility) If you don't plan to run a good number of added trains at peak hours (notwithstanding having no place to platform them) this is not worth discussing... |
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| (1468460) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 10:16:49 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by pragmatist on Tue Mar 6 10:04:36 2018. If it's a short piece of single track, it seems you could manage 4 tph, which is all that's being proposed even for the East Bronx. |
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| (1468473) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Mar 6 11:13:51 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 10:16:49 2018. Regardless of the MNRR trains, and the hoped for improvements to Empire Service, my point is that lack of platform slots are a bigger problem. |
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| (1468476) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 11:40:30 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by pragmatist on Tue Mar 6 11:13:51 2018. But East Side Access will supposedly free up some platform slots. |
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| (1468477) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Mar 6 11:59:41 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 09:20:39 2018. Perhaps you should take a look at my initial post |
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| (1468482) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 12:04:15 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Mar 6 11:59:41 2018. ???Your initial post specifically says Without explaining the whys, what fors, and in what worlds |
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| (1468489) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Mar 6 14:30:19 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 11:40:30 2018. Perhaps, but which entry tracks can access which platforms is an issue. |
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| (1468492) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 6 14:50:14 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 11:40:30 2018. IF the LIRR moves some trains to GCT the fackt remains that Empire route cannot access most LIRR platforms |
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| (1468499) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 15:36:39 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 6 14:50:14 2018. We just had a diagram posted. LIRR can access tracks 5 through 21. Empire can access 1 through 9.You only need 1 track. |
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| (1468500) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Mar 6 15:43:18 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 09:20:39 2018. ???.....No one has answered why.....Because I was continuing the conversation that was in progress, one that was specifically originated on the basis of looking at factors other than "why". Bill |
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| (1468506) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Mar 6 16:18:30 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 12:04:15 2018. Which is the part that is unclear?Bill |
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| (1468524) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 18:59:24 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 6 14:50:14 2018. Empire trains don't normally go above track 8. |
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| (1468525) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 19:00:55 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 15:36:39 2018. LIRR is not permitted below track 13.1 - 4 have no 3rd rail and no access to SSY. Empire trains do not run push-pull. |
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| (1468528) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 19:41:26 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 5 21:47:31 2018. Trouble is they load Amtrak officially from just one gate. They also looked at your e-ticket, though I think they stopped that. |
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| (1468532) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Mar 6 19:59:28 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Mon Mar 5 09:24:32 2018. and not in any planning . |
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| (1468533) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 19:59:47 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 19:00:55 2018. LIRR is not permitted below track 13.Yikes. That's a lot of trains using just 9 tracks. |
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| (1468536) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 20:09:40 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 19:59:47 2018. 13 is just rush hours, 14 is rare outside of rush hours. |
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| (1468537) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:10:13 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 19:41:26 2018. On paper they were told to stop that. At ALB they have not stopped, I don't know about NYP (I don't use the official gate). |
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| (1468540) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 20:20:22 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:10:13 2018. I just took Amtrak from NYP a few weeks ago and no one looked at my ticket until after the train started moving. |
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| (1468544) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:41:44 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 19:59:47 2018. I've seen LIRR venture down to 12 (and possibly 11?) but it is extremely rare (like, once every few years rare). The reverse is more common, an Acela Express left from track 18 a few weeks ago.I think they avoid it because the third rail for tracks 5-12 are fed differently than 13-21. My guess is keeping LIRR on the upper tracks makes accounting for the DC electric bill a tad easier. That said, Amtrak still shares third rail through the East River. One thing's for sure - the third rail on tracks 10 thru 12 is probably the dustiest live third rail under NYC, used less often than even the transit museum lead tracks. |
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| (1468545) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:46:46 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 18:59:24 2018. And cannot (currently) go above track 9. As I'm sure you've read by now (either rr.net or au), part of the Empire Connection summer ofWhich I actually don't want. *Everyone* at this point knows tracks 5 & 6 board most Empire trains, while 7 & 8 board the LSL (and possibly the AM named trains). If Amtrak can actually put them anywhere, this tiny bit of consistency will be lost. |
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| (1468558) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by R30a on Tue Mar 6 21:29:28 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:41:44 2018. I catch a low numbered LIRR about once every 2 years. It seems a lot more common than Amtrak on 18... |
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| (1468599) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 07:10:47 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:41:44 2018. In my 13 years of daily LIRR commuting , I arrived on Track 12 3 times.That was way before NJT Midtown Direct and the Amtrak Empire service. |
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| (1468601) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 07:13:47 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 20:20:22 2018. Iv'e heard people hve been stopped by Amtrak cops heading to Amtrak trains from the lower level concourses. I don't know how often that happens. I never tried it. |
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| (1468605) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Q4 on Wed Mar 7 07:59:20 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Mar 6 20:41:44 2018. LIRR does venture to Track 12 (happened to me about two weeks or so ago). |
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| (1468609) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 08:42:15 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Q4 on Wed Mar 7 07:59:20 2018. Things are not quite normal now with Track 15 closed. Line 1 & 2 trains can't get to tracks 18 - 21. |
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| (1468611) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 7 08:57:13 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 07:13:47 2018. I saw the cops do that to someone from the middle LIRR concourse once, but it was a train going to Canada and was understandable. |
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| (1468618) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 09:25:37 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 7 08:57:13 2018. Yes, Amtrak Gate Dragons think they can impersonate Border control.All the nonsense they have: the big tall check in desk with the Canadian flag, stamping your e-ticket, seat check to be handed to the actual gate dragon at top of stairs, looking at your Passport, stickers for your luggage tag. CBSA couldn't care less about any of that. They'll still check your passport and ask questions, and they still turn people back at Rousses Pt. If they got a look at Amtrak's theatre at Penn Station, they'd laugh their heads off. Of course you can get on at Yonkers through Hudson and miss all that. |
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| (1468697) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 18:16:03 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 09:25:37 2018. It is in Amtrak’s best interest to minimize the number of people turned back at the border as it costs Amtrak money to accommodate the unplanned return trip. |
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| (1468698) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Mar 7 18:18:39 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 18:16:03 2018. I have absolutely no problem with any transportation carrier taking steps such as that. The folly is that they don't do it at other stops. |
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| (1468701) | |
Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 18:38:38 2018, in response to Re: Expansion of single track Empire Connection to double track?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 18:16:03 2018. The conductors can look at passports with the ticket lift, which happens before Yonkers. Nobody else boarding except at Albany goes through any of that. |
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