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| [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis (1467862) | |
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[PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 2 15:23:23 2018  
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 16:33:17 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 2 15:23:23 2018. The ones with the center door may have come from the LIRR. They were trailers within MP41 consists until they were banned.Go down to the 4th photo http://arrts-arrchives.com/p54.html |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 2 19:56:00 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 16:33:17 2018. 
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Mar 3 11:20:20 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 16:33:17 2018. why did the lirr ban them? |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 3 15:25:13 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Mar 3 11:20:20 2018. Mixing steel and wood cars. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Mar 3 19:15:48 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 3 15:25:13 2018. Mixing steel and wood cars.The windows and doors are a match, mystery solved. Now what about the other car ? I was hoping elkeeper would have an answer. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 3 21:25:17 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Mar 3 19:15:48 2018. I scoured my Manhattan Railway car rosters. None of their gate cars went to the Washington, Baltimore, and Annapolis. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Mar 3 21:42:35 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 2 19:56:00 2018. Nice door handles. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 00:25:25 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 2 19:56:00 2018. Hello Bill MYes, Joe V is correct --- that center door car is one of the early LIRR Rapid Transit Series EL Gate 800 series cars used with LIRR Steam Engines on the BRT 5th Ave El and BRT Broadway EL's. Later inserted between two LIRR Gibbs MP-41 cars in LIRR Electric Rapid Transit type commuter services The OTHER CAR is an odd Type Gate Car -- a trailer with trailer trucks. It still has its stove roof vents and a very ODD window arrangement -- 1-2-2-2-2-2-2 -- which does NOT match any cars of the BMT (the Fulton St El curved end window cars) or the Chicago Cars --- many gate cars which had 13 windows but 5 were "paired" and the center of the car had a 3-window set. It does not match the 8 "rounded corner narrow-window pairs" open platform gate cars (EL style) used on the early Staten Island Rapid Transit steam operated trains. It also has a heavy duty railroad style end sill (and NO anticliber ribs) and heavy coupler pocket under the end sill, tho it does have the standard manufacture platform gates identical to those used also on IRT and BRT, CRT/CTA El gate cars. Also, note the very high backed seats on the interior. And the heavy duty enclosed end step wells as used on some clases of 1901 and later built BRT EL gate cars (ie: 1200, 1300, 1400 series). More research will have to be done to identify that 2nd car. Perhaps it came from the short lived Kansas City (Mo.) Interstate Elevated Railway. Regardless, a strange find and perhaps if there is ANY equipment roster and history of W B&A Railway passenger cars, it could be identified. It could have come from a short line steam railroad somewhere. regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Mar 4 05:33:38 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 00:25:25 2018. Did a bit of Googling. First is a 1928 engineering paper by EE Norris at Archive.org . Its main value for us is a short equipment summary showing that they used lots of trailers.The second item is a nice website by Hugh Hayes called Annapolis Railroad History . There are a lot of sections covering the WB&A and predecessors but they are worth plowing through for the pictures. There are several shots of the LIRR cars. There are also some early wooden electric cars that have the same upper window as our mystery El car. These are closed vestibuled cars however so we are only seeing an owner or builder's family styling. Could they have converted a steam car to trailer service by adding the El car end railings? Bill |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 05:58:09 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 2 15:23:23 2018. Hello Bill (M)I finally found the info on the 2nd carbody. It IS in fact, a former LIRR Elevated style Center Door Gate Trailer, but with the body sides rebuilt by the WB&A Railroad to remove the center door. And thus the windows were changed also ! THREE of these ex-LIRR cars were rebuilt that way, with 13 windows; WB&A #'s 345, 352 and 354. the center doors on all the other ex-LIRR Gate Cars were never used in WB&A service, and were sealed shut. I found some photos of some of the other ex-LIRR Cars that were used by the WB&A. The WB&A bought 54 of the LIRR El-Style Center Door Trailer cars, LIRR #'s 852 to 906, in 1917, after they were stored for a few years previously by the LIRR. They were not used by that time in MP-41 MU Gibbs car consists that entered Subway tunnels because of wood cars banned from running in any NY subway tunnels with passengers. That included the LIRR Flatbush Ave. tunnel, BRT Delancey St Tunnel Station and LIRR Atlantic Ave. Tunnels. Some of the ex-LIRR EL type center door gate cars were converted to work cars, a few to freight cars and a few to flat cars. Here are three of the work cars  ABOVE -- WB&A Line Car # 502 in Feb 1941 ABOVE -- WB&A Tool Car  ABOVE -- WB&A Wire Greaser Car # 06 - in 1937 Notice the center doors and two work cars with the side windows sheathed over . Here below is one of the LIRR cars in Steam service as used on the LIRR and BRT El Lines -- train seen on the LIRR at Hillside, 1898  Here below is a plan drawing of the ex-LIRR Center doors cars as used on the WB&A Railroad  Here BELOW are 2 of the three ex-LIRR center door cars whose sides were rebuilt by the WB&A to remove the center door...bottom car is # 354  AND BELOW is another ex-LIRR center door Car as WB&A # 335 likely around 1920 as fairly new to the railroad ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4708/39714049265_942c96f21a_b.jpg") and below - the INTERIOR of one of the ex-LIRR Center door cars shown as used on the WB&A Railroad.  Here is a little history I found about the purchase of these ex-LIRR Gate Cars by the WB&A in 1917  Well, Bill, that should cover it all --- I think the mystery has been solved along with some interesting history. Regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Mar 4 09:35:28 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 3 21:25:17 2018. Thanks elkeeper, here's a photo I found online of two ex-LIRR coaches coupled together.  Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Mar 4 09:50:57 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 05:58:09 2018. Thank you for solving this mystery. On that rebuilt car with the thirteen window sashes minus the center door, It looks like stained glass at the top of the window sashes. Correct ?BillNewkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 12:06:48 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Mar 4 09:50:57 2018. Hello Bill (M)Re: the upper windows on those 3 WB&A gate cars, its hard to tell, and of course, I wasn't there in person when these 3 cars were rebuilt (heh)-- or I wouldn't be here now writing to you ! It could be "stained glass" but I doubt stained glass (even then, costly) for then 20 year old used "gate" cars would have been applied. Probably a sort of cheaper frosted class in absence of shades the original center door car windows had. But one thing, the WB&A was cheap and in need of a lot of quickly acquired and cheap equipment for war years traffic -I assume WWI. And after rebuilding only 3 ex-LIRR center door gate-cars that way, decided it was easier and cheaper to keep and seal the center doors on the other cars. And get them on the road quicker. And some years later convert some to work cars. I think I know why the car has 13 windows, having 6 pairs and one odd one at one end. Of course as a scale model designer and maker I can figure it out. I would assume the odd ONE window is located at both sides of the same end of each of the 3 cars rebuilt that way. The original cars as built for the LIRR, were 5 even spaced windows...and a half-window-wide wooden tongue & groove spacer panel, and two "leaf style" sliding doors, and another wide spacer panel and 5 more even spaced windows. The SPACER PANEL was to provide for a door pocket for each of the 2-leaf (split) center doors. If you look closely, you can see the side truss rod anchors (queenposts) are located below, but very slightly towards the car ends, under the inner edge of the (5th) side window on each side of the center door. And IN THE SPACE where the twin leaf doors were removed, along with removal of their spacer panel siding wall for door pockets, there now becomes SPACE for THREE WINDOWS. Just like some Chicago wooden EL Cars -- check the image below -- and NOTE where its center bank of 3 windows are...per its queenposts.  AND BELOW -- The rebuilt WB&A ex-LIRR car BELOW to compare windows If you look closely at the WB&A car, you can almost tell where the lower sidewall woodwork changes and fill ins were made between the 2 queenposts for the center door opening removal. And the uneven "one pair" and "one-half" pair window arrangement WITHIN that space !!! Note that this Chicago EL car also has 4 even spaced windows, separated by a group of THREE in the center- thus an even and neat configuration. Of course, all the windows are somewhat narrower width to compensate for the wider window posts and larger, and enclosed, end platforms... thus 4 windows on each side of the center of the car "queenposts" instead of wider 5 windows with very narrow window posts per the ex-LIRR Gate cars. It appears the WB&A shops started building new paired windows from one end of the car to the other, as 6 PAIRED window sets, and realized they had a ONE WINDOW space remaining. And they built in the single window. Or "perhaps" they purchased ready made window paired-sets for installation and realized a slight "fitting error"! All likely lost to "shop history" and long forgotten. Had they designed it like the Chicago EL car pictured above, starting with 3 paired window sets from EACH END of the car towards center, and thus 3 windows fitted into the car center between the queenposts, the window symmetry would have been cosmetically even and pleasing. Anyway, enough of carbody history and modeling style & measuring logistics. regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Mar 4 14:01:20 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 12:06:48 2018. joe,whadda ya mean you wasn`t there,you is older than dirt. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 15:57:32 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Mar 4 14:01:20 2018. Hello Steve !Sorry, no -- I was just a newborn back then (heh), but you, YOU , heh, were quite there back then -- transferred from Highbridge Yard of the NYCRR by the IRT, over to the LIRR yards in Brooklyn, to work with crews assembling the first batch of LIRR center door cars to Maryland. Then they made you ride in one of the LIRR cars of the train being hauled via various interchange tracks, to deliver the first batch of cars to the WB&A. I was hoping all those photos I provided would get your wood up and memory stirred from being there then ! The WB&A crews sent you packing back to New York City, because the IRT wanted you in Highbridge yards in 1917- thru 1918 for the Composite car project, as we saw with you in your finely rumpled and dusty supervisor's' suit and that spectacular hat, standing with your crew in front of the IRT Forney Loco in NY Central RR Highbridge yards. Steve, sadly, your memory is really failing if you cant remember all those wonderful historical times you went thru ! If you only had a camera then -- but on the IRT salary you had back in 1917-18, you could not afford one anyway then !! Those years in your later middle-old-age-life as a new TA cop breathing in years of all that strong aromatic urine fumes (station platform and trackbed pee pee) NYC subway station air, and volumes of brake shoe dust and ozone smoke from motor gear oil splash burning off R-1/9 fleet hot brake shoes -- probably is the underlying cause. Along with all those tasty drunken doughnuts ! Sorry, Steve, but truth is, you are venerable but you are older than OLD ancient Dirt -- heh ! regards !! - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 16:50:28 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 12:06:48 2018. Hello Bill and allHere is a beautiful fully detailed scratchbuilt 2-rail O-Scale Model of a LIRR "Rapid Transit" Center Door Gate Trailer Car as built by legendary modeler of NYC Transit - Bob Olson - built by Bob many decades ago. It is now the property of Nate Gerstein and seen on his own 2 rail O-Scale NYC transit based layout between two of his O-Scale BRT EL Gate motor Cars. Comments with the photo sent to me state: "LIRR Gate Trailer Car loaned to BRT"  Regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Mar 5 05:47:32 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 16:50:28 2018. NICE !Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Mar 5 14:35:13 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 15:57:32 2018. just goes to show you that I am an invaluable-n- unreplaceble,larger than life,one of a kind,one hell of a swell guy. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Mar 5 14:36:59 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 15:57:32 2018. just goes to show you that I am an invaluable-n- unreplaceble,larger than life,one of a kind,one hell of a swell guy. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Mar 5 15:19:22 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Mar 5 14:35:13 2018. just goes to show you that I am an invaluable-n- unreplaceble,larger than life,one of a kind,one hell of a swell guy.Who else is going to spin tales of a certain subway station just east of Broadway Junction ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Mar 5 15:25:44 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Mar 5 15:19:22 2018. WAY EAST. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Mar 5 19:40:06 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Mar 5 14:35:13 2018. Steve: We're not trying to talk about your age but when you signed up for military service the commanding general was "Atilla the Hun". Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 5 20:32:14 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Mar 5 15:25:44 2018. LXXVII. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 5 20:34:04 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 5 20:32:14 2018. SHOULD BE LXXVI. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 8 20:22:54 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Mar 4 16:50:28 2018. Oh gawd, look at those trucks, lettering, and gates! Sweet! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 21:28:46 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Mar 5 05:47:32 2018. impressive model |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 9 05:35:37 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 8 21:28:46 2018. impressive modelYes, one of a kind and hand built. That must have took some time to complete. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 15:25:02 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 8 20:22:54 2018. Hello 3-9So, You like that old wood stuff -- well, here is some of my own stuff --- BMT Division - some of my dozens of scratchbuilt O-Scale 2 Rail EL cars -- seen at a local EL station platform as shot from across the tracks from the opposite platform  
 Bob Olson and I are many decades long time friends and fellow modelers -- Bob is the only one I know of who built a 3 car set of BMT EL C Types in O Scale --- here they are on his Brooklyn based O Scale EL & Trolley layout 
Here is a website hosting Bob's Layout on one of its showcase pages http://www.nycmodeltransit.org/BobOlson.htm Regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 17:31:31 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 15:25:02 2018. Hello again 3-9 More OLD stuff you may like -- this time Boston based -- A Boston EL Fan modeler friend of mine, named Scott Ruffin, many years ago scratch built some 2-Rail O-Scale BOSTON EL - Subway Cars --- here are some photos of his work, again, like my models and Bob Olson's, of models never produced commercially. Mainly due to little to no interest -- remember - BOSTON - Like Philly, long was and still is a heavy TROLLEY FAN and TROLLEY MODELER based area !      regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 9 19:38:53 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 17:31:31 2018. VERY nice, both sets! In addition to the details on the cars, I appreciate the details you guys put into the stations, houses, and the like. Since I wasn't around during those times, it's a nice reminder that not everything was black-and-white. :-)My fondness for the wooden equipment stems from the fact that they were able to do their jobs with so much less than today's cars. Also, modifying the cars to do different tasks (like converting a trailer to a motor and vice versa), seems like much less of a big deal than now. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sat Mar 10 12:23:27 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 15:25:02 2018. beautifulvery nice |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Mar 10 12:54:39 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 15:25:02 2018. Hello 3-9 and SalaamallahThanks both for your comments on transit car scale models -- My models and the others made by Bob Olson and Scott Ruffin. Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sat Mar 10 15:19:21 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 9 17:31:31 2018. wonderful models |
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