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| (1431819) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Mar 31 20:05:44 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 31 16:54:03 2017. I think a good argument exists at least for renaming the Lefferts Blvd branch, for the following reasons:1) More than just a few runs per day. . .in fact about half of the runs. 2) It's easier and clearer to tell people "take the A train for JFK" rather than "take only certain A trains for JFK." 3) You can make the new letter the name of the shuttle to Lefferts from Euclid overnight, rather than have any ambiguity against the A train or the present Rockaway Park shuttle. As I see it, the advantages outweigh whatever transition would need to be made in having an extra line name going up 8th Ave. "Take the A or K (for example)," does not require much more breath than "Take the A," and for anyone going out to the branches beyond Rockaway Blvd, you can give much more succinct directions. |
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| (1431824) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 31 20:59:29 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Fri Mar 31 19:52:32 2017. A symbol would help for persons whose English is limited or non-existent. |
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| (1431835) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 31 21:59:09 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by randyo on Fri Mar 31 16:23:08 2017. It may no longer be the "quickest way to get to Harlem," though. |
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| (1431837) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 31 22:03:53 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by randyo on Fri Mar 31 16:25:02 2017. Chicago is unique in that you have the Red and Purple lines sharing the same structure from Howard to the State St. subway north portal, with Purple Line aka Evanston Express trains running nonstop from Howard to IINM Wilson now, then they skip Sheridan (except when there's a game at Wrigley Field) and Addison before making all stops from Belmont to the Loop, and Red Line trains making all stops from Howard to Belmont, then express to the State St. subway north portal. In short, the two express patterns flip flop. |
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| (1431841) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Mar 31 22:50:59 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Mar 30 22:47:24 2017. Oddball yes, but also superior. I'm thinking the two reasons why NY got them and no one outside the US did (or ever will):1. NYC roads are wider and thus, cut and cover of 4 tracks versus 2 didn't add much difficulty. 2. For NY area surface routes, the train came before the development. Since cities are now built up before they install a subway, almost all new designs are going to be deep bore or highway median. Few medians can fit more than two tracks, and deep bore has a linear additional expense for each new tunnel as opposed to the incremental expense of a wider cut. |
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| (1431846) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 01:55:11 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Mar 30 22:47:24 2017. No, New York is the leader by showing how much better service could be. BART and WMATA both made very bad decisions on track and route design which will cost mega billions to correct. Given that both systems a.failed to build express tracks, b. failed to buy enough rolling stock, c. never have achieved the TPH pre computer systems were able to sustain, they have given riders far lower quality service for their inequitable fares.Chicago built express tracks on what turned out to be the heaviest usage lines, CTA, adopting A/B skip stop and very short headways was able to get riders to the Loop as much as 10 minutes faster in the60s than they do now. Sad to say both NY and Chicago have degraded the "rapid" aspect of transit. |
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| (1431847) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 01:59:03 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Mar 31 22:50:59 2017. I would say you are correct on both counts. There are short "pocket tracks" in the Dan Ryan median, BART near Lafayette, but in general highway medians are too narrow--although they could be widened much as they have been narrowed over the years. |
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| (1431848) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 02:02:52 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Mar 31 20:05:44 2017. Nah, the signage can either show a plane or not. About as explicit as possible. |
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| (1431849) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 02:07:55 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 31 19:56:57 2017. The patterns have changed over the years. Fifty years ago IIRC the expresses ran rush hour only and the Ridge Ave Spur took over the local stops. Remember, too, that the express tunnels extended further as a provision for a futre branch. IINM that branch was to go out Roosevelt Blvd, and their was a rumor of a station provision adjacent a Sears building. Sears will be dead, the building razed and the branch still won't get built. |
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| (1431850) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by The Silence on Sat Apr 1 02:36:52 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Mar 31 20:05:44 2017. Having to resign the entire line from Indwood to Woodhaven to rename the line because of a three stop branch that could possibly cause confusion seems to me to be a massive waste of time, resources and energy.Let's take a look at a different train to the plane; London's Piccadilly Line. It's laid out a lot like the A, it's even a kinda similar shade of blue. It has a branch that doesn't go to the airport. But it's actually much longer. And the trains that do go to Heathrow don't all go to the same stations there. If you want to go to Terminal 4 and ended up on a T5 train, you've got to back track all the way to the first station outside the airport. So if a three stop branch to Lefferts is the end of the world, what's with the Tube's 14 stop branch to Uxbridge? I've never heard anyone discussing relabeling one of the two branches to remove confusion. And don't even get me started on the District or Northern Lines.... I was riding an N towards Queens once. Train pulls into Lexington. A woman pokes her head into the car and asks if this was the train to Queens. She was standing under a destination sign hanging on the platform that told here where the trains were going. We were in the last car so she had plenty of times to see the destination signs showed Astoria. And it was an R160 so her question was immediately preceded by "This is a Queens bound N express train. The next stop is Queensboro Plaza." Another ride, this time going into Brooklyn over the Bridge, a little old lady sitting next to me asked where the next stop was in relation to something in Manhattan. Long story short, she was convinced she was on the R. Even though this was also a 160. (She was also convinced that what was then Empire-Fulton Ferry Park was Ellis Island) Both these people were locals and both had normal grasps of English and they still got turned around. |
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| (1431861) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 1 08:53:19 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 01:55:11 2017. Yeah, now it's leisurely transit in New York. You'll get there - eventually. |
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| (1431884) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 1 11:31:07 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 31 20:59:29 2017. One would think JFK is a special case here, as it's both the name of the airport (or at least the most common abbreviation) and also coincidentally the code, which a traveler presumably would have seen on their ticket, boarding pass, and/or luggage.A few scenarios come to mind: 1) A non-American who knows they need to go to "Kennedy Airport", who lacks the cultural/historical background Americans have to know JFK means John F. Kennedy. 2) A non-English-speaker who has little to no experience with the Latin alphabet may not puzzle out the J, F, K letters in sufficient time to read the side sign. 3) Someone who is simply not very precise may simply say "Aha! The A train!" and take the first one they see, even if it's going in the wrong direction. Given those possible points of confusion, I think you're right that the symbol is probably the simplest and cheapest option to indicate that it's an airport train. |
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| (1431891) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 1 14:26:34 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 31 21:59:09 2017. It probably ties with the D. |
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| (1431895) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 1 14:54:49 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 01:59:03 2017. I have a 1958 CTA annual report that mentions the median in the Congress Expwy had a provision for 2 extra tracks in certain areas and one extra track farther out in case there should ever be a need for express service. |
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| (1431896) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Apr 1 15:03:45 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by The Silence on Sat Apr 1 02:36:52 2017. Yes I see your points regarding the high ambiguity of some London Underground "lines." I've mentioned in the past Paris' RER, which has so many branches reduced to one label and color based on the main artery they use in the city center Example.So here's the thing. . .we don't call the 1, 2, and 3 on 7th Ave in New York all one line with various branches. We use different designations. Same goes for the other Manhattan arteries as appropriate. Even Paris' RER you will notice, designates a number suffix for the various branches (even if not part of station signage, which is real time and always showing destination anyway). London's Underground, I'd be willing to bet, would add designations to the ambiguous places too if they were letters and numbers rather than actual words. I'd also throw in that Earls Court has clear platform signage too to identify each train before it arrives. Lastly, Heathrow is a terminal, and trains for Heathrow have "Heathrow" marked permanently on their front signs throughout a run. In any case, each situation worldwide is different, and I've put forth three advantages to renaming the Lefferts Blvd branch of the A. And since letters are available (H, K, etc.), the only disadvantage I can think of is the one-time signage change at all appropriate points systemwide but MTA does not seem to be one to let signage changes be the thing to prevent them from making a reasonable revision in service patterns. Maybe in a different city, these advantages would not be enough to outweigh the drawbacks, but in this case I think the case is at least close, if not fully established. |
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| (1431917) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 18:50:41 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by randyo on Sat Apr 1 14:54:49 2017. Correct. And early pictures of the portal to the tunnels under the river show provisions for more tracks. |
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| (1431920) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 1 20:22:30 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 1 18:50:41 2017. There's a LOT of room in the median of the Eisenhower Expressway. |
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| (1431936) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 2 02:14:14 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 1 20:22:30 2017. IINM, they were dreaming of running CA&E as well as CTA trains. |
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| (1431970) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 17:04:55 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Apr 1 15:03:45 2017. Much easier - and we've had this discussion, I know - is to extend the C to Lefferts and run all As to the Rockaways. |
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| (1431976) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 2 17:45:12 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 2 02:14:14 2017. I don’t know if they were contemplating CA&E service since a large number of CA&E cars were wood which were not wanted in the subway and keeping the line above ground would have required possibly retaining a portion of the original el structure into downtown Chicago which the city was anxious to demolish. |
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| (1431980) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 2 17:53:41 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 17:04:55 2017. That would make a lot of sense and would make the C a 24/7 service between Euclid and Lefferts extended to 168 St during “normal” hours. |
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| (1431982) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Apr 2 18:07:58 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 17:04:55 2017. Easier, but expensive and poorly serving the nearly half of A train riders who go to the Lefferts branch. Service cutbacks that cost more don't usually fly. |
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| (1431988) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 2 19:12:53 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by randyo on Sun Apr 2 17:45:12 2017. found a pic on chicagol-l.org showing the extra portal blankshttp://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/Congress/UIC-halsted01.jpg |
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| (1431994) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 19:28:50 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by AlM on Sun Apr 2 18:07:58 2017. The question is whether a change to more often service by a local is a cutback from less often service by an express. |
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| (1431998) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Apr 2 20:20:46 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 19:28:50 2017. The people who would be subject to the hypothetical change clearly view it as a cutback. |
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Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Apr 3 07:41:49 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 31 16:54:03 2017. No, I think the Es that run to/from 179th (and Ns to 96th, 2s to New Lots...) can keep those designations. Those are only a few runs, that the regular riders can look to avoid, or catch as their needs dictate- and only for small segments of the line, anyway.But to me, connecting to or not connecting to the region's largest international airport is very significant. Us NYers, who are used to, or can quickly learn to check side-signage can handle it. For Americans from other parts of the country without a lot of public transportation, and foreigners with limited English... I still say give them a letter K or an airplane symbol on the train. The few runs to Rockaway Park can be designated the same way- they also stop at Howard Beach. Local (no pun intended) residents can read the side signage to know which way the train will turn at Hammels Wye. |
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| (1432040) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Apr 3 07:46:54 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by The Silence on Sat Apr 1 02:36:52 2017. I was talking about helping a lot of people. Helping the utterly clueless is beyond what could be reasonably expected of any transit planner... |
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| (1432049) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 3 15:56:05 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 2 19:12:53 2017. I’ve seen the portals myself, but it’s doubtful that they were intended for the CA&E. |
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| (1432050) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 3 16:01:12 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 19:28:50 2017. The service might not actually be more often but alternate Cs would probably be turned back at Euclid like the As were in the 1960s and 70s. |
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| (1432051) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 3 16:01:54 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 19:28:50 2017. The service might not actually be more often but alternate Cs would probably be turned back at Euclid like the As were in the 1960s and 70s. |
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| (1432052) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 3 16:01:54 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 2 19:28:50 2017. The service might not actually be more often but alternate Cs would probably be turned back at Euclid like the As were in the 1960s and 70s. |
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| (1432061) | |
Re: On this date in 1976... |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Apr 4 00:25:50 2017, in response to Re: On this date in 1976..., posted by randyo on Mon Apr 3 15:56:05 2017. Many tales over the years...No way CTA would have run wood cars underground. Whatever the dreams/plans, 59 years later, nothing but the Congress-Milwaukee Route (Blue Line). |
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