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| Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground (1430997) | |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 28 18:45:08 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 08:58:45 2017. I think this would be more useful for people headed from Woodhaven to Long Island, not Manhattan. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 28 18:54:14 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Mar 28 18:14:47 2017. 
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 28 19:07:39 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:02:18 2017. I agree. As an alternative for people working in Manhattan, it's not work investing the $$$. However, for people to get from this part of Queens to points on the LIRR east of Jamaica on a single fare, a case could be made.Any first step towards getting this station re-opened would be a feasibility study. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 20:56:25 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 28 18:33:43 2017. Nevins lower level is blocked from the south by the IND, but before you get there, you have to get under the IRT and two levels of BMT. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 28 21:11:34 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:02:18 2017. The Woodhaven Jct station lies within 1/2 mile of 4 existing subway stations. These are the 104th St and Rockaway Blv stations on the A and 104th and Woodhaven Blv on the J/Z.48% of Queens residents live further than 1/2 mile from a subway stop. Reopening the Woodhaven Jct LIRR station would not reduce this percentage. 1/2 mile is a long distance. If you go to any subway station in Queens, you'll find people taking the bus 1/2 or less every single day. That's a long walk for many New Yorkers. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 28 22:00:19 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 17:08:21 2017. If they want it bad enough, it will get done.After all, If they got away with ripping down Ebbets Field, this would be light stuff in comparison!:) |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 22:07:18 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 28 22:00:19 2017. If it is wanted bad enough, it will be done, but not by using the existing LIRR Atlantic/Flatbush Terminal.The 2004 Lower Manhattan–Jamaica/JFK Transportation Project had four different options, and all involved branching off the current line around Bedford/Franklin. The existing station would either be kept for a small subset of traffic, or abandoned completely in favor of a station deep enough to clear all the other lines in the area. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 28 22:51:48 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 17:08:21 2017. IIRC, there's a mass of switches just north of the trackway, which would allow a train to cross over to any track. The trackway actually leads right into those switches, as if it was supposed to be part of it. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 28 22:52:20 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 22:07:18 2017. "The 2004 Lower Manhattan–Jamaica/JFK Transportation Project..."Whats the status of that?? Maybe some of Trumps infrastructure $$$ will kick start this. I'm not holding my breath |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Tue Mar 28 23:40:32 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 01:01:52 2017. Yup,,,that's for sure.Jimmymc25 |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 29 00:25:03 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 22:07:18 2017. I often think that extending the LIRR to lower Manhattan should have been done before East Side Access, or possibly as part of a giant loop connecting to ESA. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Mar 29 00:51:32 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 29 00:25:03 2017. For the money already spent on ESA, they could have built exactly that. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 29 01:21:50 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 28 21:11:34 2017. for example, Rego Park/63rd Drive on the M and R lines.There are people who take the Q38 bus to Woodhaven Blvd/63rd or to Yellowstone Blvd and 63rd. There are probably people who take a bus from Atlantic Ave to the J or A train. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Mar 29 02:11:11 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 29 01:21:50 2017. sure. if they come every 10 or 15 minutes it's worth it. a common enough new york commuting pattern. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 29 02:21:20 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Wed Mar 29 02:11:11 2017. You can walk about as fast as the bus in many cases in NYC. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Mar 29 06:03:55 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 29 02:21:20 2017. i know. but new yorkers are geospatially cognitive, and definitely well situated upon a fully realized dynamic transit grid.as in, it definitely makes sense here to consider it normal that many people walk a block or two to catch a bus that goes as little as, oh, ten blocks to a rail station. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 29 07:11:17 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 29 02:21:20 2017. Particularly so with some Manhattan crosstown buses.As for LIRR-Woodhaven, it's a no-brainer, can be faster to Wall Street area than the A or J trains if you live within a 5 minute walk of Atlantic Av, can take some people off the Woodhaven Blvd buses, and not add to operating costs. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 29 07:13:07 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 28 22:51:48 2017. A mass of switches means a mass of delays when a LIRR train from Manhattan were to cross over. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 29 07:33:30 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 28 21:11:34 2017. 1/2 mile is a long distance.1/2 mile is a 10 minute walk. That's a long walk for many New Yorkers. 9 year old school children are expected to walk that distance. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 29 08:11:08 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 29 07:33:30 2017. But some adults won't do it, even if their kids do, even the ones who spend an hour at the gym every other day.With free transfers, if they see a bus coming, they'll take it for several blocks. They think they are saving time, and perhaps just making a train that is 10 minutes sooner than the one they otherwise would have caught. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Wed Mar 29 08:25:55 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 28 22:52:20 2017. The Lower Manhattan–Jamaica/JFK Transportation Project effectively died with the Pataki administration. The estimates had grown to almost $10 billion, and Spritzer and Paterson had other priorities.I looked at the enginering drawings again, and they would be even more expensive and complicated today. All of the options made extensive use of empty lots in Brooklyn that now have 8-30 story builings on them. Personal note: the building I used to live in (built around 2009) would have been the site of the main entrance and ancillery/vent building for the new station under Atlantic Avenue between 4th and 3rd. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Wed Mar 29 08:30:31 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Tue Mar 28 22:51:48 2017. The IRT has enough delays without waiting for crossing trains to hold up both East and West side trains.Plus, the trackway does not exist, and has not existed for over 100 years. You would have to effectively destroy the busiest entrance to the busiest subway station in Brooklyn to re-create it. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 29 09:52:40 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 12:26:25 2017. downtown brooklyn sure has gotten busier. after forty years...might be a viable idea again.According to the 2014 LEHD Census, 0.5% of the people who live within 1/2 mile of the Woodhaven Jct. LIRR station work within 1/2 mile of the Flatbush Ave LIRR Terminal. Wall St is only slightly better. 3.2% of the people live within 1/2 mile of the Woodhaven Jct. LIRR station work within 1/2 mile of Broad and Wall Streets. I'm not denying that Downtown Brooklyn has changed. It might be wise to first discover where Downtown Brooklyn workers live before building duplicate transportation from where they don't. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 29 13:42:25 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 29 07:11:17 2017. yup. It would take me about 10 minutes to walk 1/2 mile in Queens. Maybe a little less. That includes stopping at intersections.1/2 mile is very far for some people to walk. Especially with free transfer as a possibility. How many people really take the bus from Woodhaven all the way to the IND on Queens Blvd? |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Mar 29 16:46:47 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 29 08:11:08 2017. kudos. that's an exact description of new york-style transit utilization. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Mar 29 16:50:40 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 29 09:52:40 2017. i suggest that on this topic strict adherence to existing metrics isn't the best approach. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:13:51 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 29 07:13:07 2017. True. I was just pointing out that the switches exist. Otherwise, I'm very leery of feeding even more trains into the IRT at that point, much less from the Atlantic Ave branch of the LIRR. If we want to go with pipe dreams, we might as well have it feed into a future tunnel for the 2nd Ave subway. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:16:48 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LA Scott on Wed Mar 29 08:30:31 2017. With the large underpasses there, it won't be without impact but it won't be a killer, IMO. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:23:53 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 29 00:25:03 2017. With the way Lower Manhattan was changing, even then, it may not have been the greatest idea. Plus, considering how crowded Lower Manhattan is, shoehorning another tunnel, a terminal maybe some storage tracks would've been a bigger deal than ESA, which costs a ton even though the river tunnels have existed for decades. And that's not counting an additional loop. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 30 15:37:44 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:23:53 2017. Even so..the problem is the LIRR has more of an upscale Subway system look...not an actual Railroad.With any "subway system",you kinda expect frequent service. Now,the ESA should have been the FIRST STEP in the construction of the Loop system including the LOWER MANHATTAN ACCESS TUNNEL AND SYSTEMS leading to the Atlantic Branch. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 30 15:37:46 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:23:53 2017. Even so..the problem is the LIRR has more of an upscale Subway system look...not an actual Railroad.With any "subway system",you kinda expect frequent service. Now,the ESA should have been the FIRST STEP in the construction of the Loop system including the LOWER MANHATTAN ACCESS TUNNEL AND SYSTEMS leading to the Atlantic Branch. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 30 15:37:51 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:23:53 2017. Even so..the problem is the LIRR has more of an upscale Subway system look...not an actual Railroad.With any "subway system",you kinda expect frequent service. Now,the ESA should have been the FIRST STEP in the construction of the Loop system including the LOWER MANHATTAN ACCESS TUNNEL AND SYSTEMS leading to the Atlantic Branch. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 30 17:45:35 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 30 15:37:44 2017. Unfortunately, all that leads to one other obstacle: the neighborhoods who will be disrupted. At least with a subway line, the neighborhoods will eventually benefit, but try convincing them that tearing up the street for the LIRR will benefit them. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 30 18:50:19 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 30 17:45:35 2017. And THAT is the main problem.Why such a distinction between city service and suburban when its operations are controlled by the same State agency? Why couldn't there be through service from the subway to railroad and railroad to subway? A few changes and connections here and there,at a few obvious locations... |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 30 19:25:12 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 30 18:50:19 2017. FRA, equipment size length, height, width, floor height, signal systems, 3rd rail voltage - all differ. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Mar 30 19:50:37 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 29 19:13:51 2017. Feed it into a new tunnel connecting to the (1) train at South Ferry with a stop on Governors Island. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 30 20:13:36 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 30 19:25:12 2017. ...and lets not forget about the unions. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Mar 30 22:13:09 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 30 17:45:35 2017. A LIRR line from Atlantic Terminal through lower Manhattan and up to Grand Central could be almost all deep-bore as it would have just one new station, best placed at Fulton St. Few if any neighborhoods would see any significant disruption. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 31 11:44:17 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 30 19:25:12 2017. That falls under "a few changes". |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 31 15:44:12 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Mar 30 22:13:09 2017. Wasn't the current 2nd Ave subway done mostly with tunneling machines? How much of 2nd Ave had to be torn up, aside from making the stations? |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Mar 31 16:56:19 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by SMAZ on Thu Mar 30 19:50:37 2017. Super pipe dream option: use the yard portal at Vanderbilt to go south on Vanderbilt, then west on Bergen; stops at Flatbush (2/3 transfer), 3rd Av, Smith (F/G transfer), and Henry/Congress, then to Governors Island with a stop near the Manhattan ferry terminal, then to new South Ferry. Just don't hit the Battery tunnel! |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 31 17:43:23 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 31 15:44:12 2017. You basically got it.The only places the opened the street was.at stations AND cut and cover sections in upper Manhattan. Considering the logistics of developing a hybid system and railcar able to use both NYCT and LIRR...ONE CAN ONLY LOOK AT OUR NEWEST RAIL CARS and modify the design...with specialized undercarriages for platform heights,variable voltage (600-750) commuter and Rapid transit interiors. Its not too hard when you think about it. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 31 20:26:31 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by K. Trout on Fri Mar 31 16:56:19 2017. As far as super pipe dreams go, I like it.I would make the Flatbush/Bergen stop be between Flatbush and 4th (a distance of 1300 feet) with a new entrance to the Pacific/4th platform, which ends around Bergen. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 31 20:46:54 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Mar 30 22:13:09 2017. There is no reason to build it. No one will take the LIRR from Jamaica to GCT that way, and is entirely duplicative of the Lex once in Brooklyn. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 31 20:55:57 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 31 20:46:54 2017. There is no reason to build it.What a loop offers is twice the capacity. Instead of the projected 24 tph for ESA, 48 tph would be possible. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 31 21:59:39 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 30 17:45:35 2017. The benefits of using TBM,EBMS is the fact that only a few selected areas would need cut and cover work... |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 1 08:10:06 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 31 20:55:57 2017. Who is going to take at least a 45 minute train ride from Jamaica to GCT via Brooklyn ? You can build all the capacity you want - no one but a railfan on a Saturday will ride it. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 1 08:11:10 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 31 21:59:39 2017. Seeing a what a fiasco SAS was for a Stub to 96th, imagine would a boondoggle this would be. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 1 10:17:47 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 1 08:10:06 2017. "Who is going to take at least a 45 minute train ride from Jamaica to GCT via Brooklyn?"Why, almost nobody. Those coming through Brooklyn would probably almost all exit at Fulton St. Instead of reversing the train, however, it could run through GCT back to Long Island. Trains going to GCT could dump almost all their passengers and then run through to Fulton Street and back to Long Island. It's more efficient and wouldn't require as much (if any) additional Manhattan storage capacity. It would also introduce a considerable flexibility that would be valuable. The new LIRR terminal at GCT could be set up to reverse trains in either direction if circumstances called for it. If the route via the ESA tunnels became unusable for any reason, passengers could go from GCT to Jamaica via Brooklyn if they had to. If the route through Brooklyn were blocked, passengers from Fulton Street could get to Jamaica via GCT. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 1 10:37:27 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 1 10:17:47 2017. Building a multi-billion dollar tunnel from lower Manhattan to GCT for deadhead trains is ridiculous. There is no Manhattan Storage capacity to consider. The trains are to deadhead back to LIC to a yard there.There is also no commercial need to run all these trains reverse peak back to Long Island. We built the West Side Yard to put an end to that costly nonsense 30 years ago. If both lines to or from GCT are blocked, the people can go to Penn Station, Hunterspoint, or take the subway the 7 & E to Jamaica, and a silly tour via Brooklyn. |
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