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| 8 cars and the C (1427715) | |
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| (1427715) | |
8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Feb 15 20:49:01 2017 The C, along with the B and 1, 2, 3, are my principal rides on the UWS to most anywhere. What limits the C to 8 cars? I can't think of a station along 8th Ave or in Brooklyn to Euclid that is not 10 cars long. What am I missing? |
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| (1427717) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Feb 15 21:12:13 2017, in response to 8 cars and the C, posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Feb 15 20:49:01 2017. Ridership is within loading guidelines on the C and it's projected to be the case into the next decade. There is no need to leghthen the consists used on the C as of now based solely on that.Of course something operationally could make it preferable in the future. |
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| (1427718) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 15 21:17:09 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Feb 15 21:12:13 2017. They don't have the equipment to lengthen nyway. |
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| (1427720) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Feb 15 21:18:16 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Feb 15 21:12:13 2017. Well I have gotten in a few crush-loaded C's at W 72. But what you say probably also explains that at W.4th coming back, I watch about 3 E's come by on average for each C. |
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| (1427724) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Feb 15 21:53:26 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Feb 15 21:18:16 2017. E ridership is much higher than the C. Plus at CPW stations, entrances/exit stairways are at the ends of the platforms. So the first 2 and last 2 cars are much more crowded than the 4 middle ones. |
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| (1427767) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Feb 16 12:38:24 2017, in response to 8 cars and the C, posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Feb 15 20:49:01 2017. A much-less talked about reason is although never-used, if needed, the (C) can actually run via the (M) and then (J) after West 4th to Broadway Junction on the (J) line. This comes in very handy if for some reason the (A) encounters enough problems where the line has to be split in Brooklyn. |
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| (1427792) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Feb 16 17:59:08 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Feb 16 12:38:24 2017. Because the J and M lines have oh-so-much extra capacity to accommodate an emergency C train reroute, yes?/s |
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| (1427800) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 16 18:48:31 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Feb 16 17:59:08 2017. If the C can't get to Brooklyn, they'll turn it back at WTC or 2nd Ave. |
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| (1427807) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Feb 16 18:54:59 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 16 18:48:31 2017. The show must go on! |
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| (1427841) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Feb 16 23:31:26 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 16 18:48:31 2017. Yes, I know. My previous post was a sarcastic response to Wally's suggestion to run the C via the F, M and J lines to Broadway Junction (this is not the first time he has suggested this). |
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| (1427843) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 17 07:24:22 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Feb 15 21:12:13 2017. Ridership is within loading guidelinesThe problem is that NYCT loading guidelines provide for crowding that experts deem to be incompatible with reliable operation. The loading guideline for 60' cars is 145 passengers. The area for the 60 footers is 60 x 10 or 600 sq ft. This comes to 4.14 sq ft/passenger. The amount of sq ft per passenger has been studied. Here's how the TCRP's Report 165 - Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual - 3rd Edition summarizes this amount of space. Range 3.2-4.2 ft2/p 0.30-0.39 m2/p Passenger Perspective Occasional body contact Standees have less space than seated passengers Operator Perspective Provides a balance between passenger comfort and capacity Moving to and from doorways requires some effort, which may increase dwell time (13) (emphasis mine) The point is that the schedules cannot be maintained at the loading guidelines the MTA deems acceptable. |
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| (1427846) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Fri Feb 17 07:42:56 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 16 18:48:31 2017. Agreed, and it has happened before when the "C" has and can be turned back at WTC or 2nd Avenue. The route with its assigned crews is not going wander over into unfamiliar territory, and that would be to the point it would not have to change its radio frequency from B2 [IND] to B1 [BMT].-William A. Padron ["Hudson Terminal"] |
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| (1427851) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 17 08:55:57 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Feb 16 23:31:26 2017. The idea is, it's there if it's needed for whatever reason. |
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| (1427852) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 17 08:58:04 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Feb 17 07:42:56 2017. The idea of sending the (C) via Broadway-Brooklyn in an emergency is that passengers can reconnect with the (A) at Broadway Junction. Just having the option (even if never used) can be important. |
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| (1427870) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 17:26:27 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Feb 17 07:42:56 2017. Small nitpick; they already have to switch to B1 for Broadway-Lafayette if they are routed via IND 6th ave. |
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| (1427878) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Feb 17 21:35:16 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 17:26:27 2017. Why on Earth would they? Broadway-Lafayette is pure IND. Southbound from there, the M would switch channels at Essex Street, the B and D at Grand Street, and the F not until Church Ave. Or maybe the M would switch leaving B'way-Laf, I'm not sure, but other lines certainly don't. |
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| (1427881) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 22:20:30 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Feb 17 21:35:16 2017. The local trains all switch to B1 through that station because Essex tower controls the switch, and it is on B1. They've done so since Chrystie St. |
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| (1427882) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 22:49:17 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 22:20:30 2017. Ugh trying to find proof of this and coming up empty. I can't remember if it was Nassau st trains briefly switch to B2 or 6th ave switch to B1. I just remember an explanation given to me regarding Essex tower controlling the switch, which is why both lines were talking on the same frequency (and this was before the orange M). I might be remembering wrong. However I do recall hearing IND trains calling in through Broadway Lafayette while listening to a scanner while riding the J on Nassau st, which was what prompted me to ask eons ago. Contemplating checking it out first hand to see if I can prove/disprove my assertion. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 23:00:39 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 17 07:24:22 2017. That can simply be solved with a schedule tweak - either increase the C's frequency or schedule knowing that it will take longer to clear certain stops.The C will not go to 10 cars due to the inspection pit at 207st being incapable of handling more than 480' of train. However there is plenty of room in the schedule to run more Cs to address overcrowding. |
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| (1427884) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Feb 17 23:04:07 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 22:49:17 2017. Based on the signs, the M is the only one which switches there. I'd have to guess Essex hears both divisions. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Sat Feb 18 12:29:00 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by R30A on Fri Feb 17 23:04:07 2017. Yes, they do..... |
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| (1427927) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Feb 18 23:04:07 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Sat Feb 18 12:29:00 2017. B1 & B2 radio frequencies are present simultaneously at Essex (Change over point). B2 channel are the only radio frequencies present in the Chrystie Street cut.Essex Master Tower controls the switches to/from the IND/BMT cut, the switches at 2nd Avenue, B'way-Lafayette, Delancey, Chambers and Broad Street, and is tied in to both B1 & B2 radio frequencies to control traffic through those interlocks. |
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| (1427931) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 01:48:59 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 22:20:30 2017. They couldn’t have done so since Chrystie since at the time Chrystie went into effect, BMT and IND had no radios. |
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| (1427933) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:08:27 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 17 23:00:39 2017. If the pit at 207 can’t handle more than 480 ft trains, then how does it deal with the R-46s? If the R-46s have to be cut into 300 ft units then the R-160s and R-179s can also be cut the same way. |
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| (1427953) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:24:11 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Handbrake on Sat Feb 18 23:04:07 2017. As a side note, back in the day I had a B put-in at Second Ave.We had to use B1 frequency to talk to Essex, B2 to reach Control. |
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| (1427954) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:26:35 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:08:27 2017. R46's go to Pitkin for inspections and troubles. I suppose they'll put 4 cars into the barn just to prepare it to go to Pitkin if necessary. |
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| (1427955) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 10:35:13 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:26:35 2017. Also IIRC the reason the R46 pairs were sent to the A was to maximize the use of the pit, by being able to put 450' of train on it at once. |
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| (1427958) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:52:38 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 10:35:13 2017. Perhaps because below 58xx are Jamaica cars and above are Pitkin. So I think coincidence.Again, you will only see an R46 in 207 barn to prepare it for transfer and repair at Pitkin. All R46 are main shopped to CI. |
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| (1427959) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 19 10:54:25 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:08:27 2017. "If the pit at 207 can’t handle more than 480 ft trains, then how does it deal with the R-46s? If the R-46s have to be cut into 300 ft units then the R-160s and R-179s can also be cut the same way."Unless I am very mistaken the 207th Street IND train yard is original to the IND first system with 600-foot trains from the start. Why would the designers and builders create maintenance facilities that can not handle an entire train right from the start? This is not the same topic as using converted facilities such as Eastern Parkway or Coney Island. Mike |
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| (1427962) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 19 11:26:14 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 19 10:54:25 2017. Why would the designers and builders create maintenance facilities that can not handle an entire train right from the start?The original fleet was composed of single unit cars. The brain trust that shifted to unitized trains should have factored in the cost of retrofitting the maintenance facilities to accommodate longer unitized trains. |
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| (1427963) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Sun Feb 19 11:27:04 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Handbrake on Sat Feb 18 23:04:07 2017. Also, Essex is the "bridge" between W.4th and Dekalb. Basically, holding trains at Grand St and/or Bway-Lafayette just in case there is an issue on the Manhattan Bridge...... |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:51:21 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:52:38 2017. I thought only Pitkin and Jamaica kept a spare parts stock for them ? |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:53:09 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 19 10:54:25 2017. AA & B trains were 8 cars or less. Only rush hour A's were 10, but I don't remember about mid-day weekdays. |
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| (1427984) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 17:25:06 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:53:09 2017. Actually post 1940 when 6 Av opened, BB trains were 6 cars with 4 car trains on the shoulders. Going back to the late 1950s when I first started paying attention to cars services, AAs ran 3 cars during the midnight and added to 6 car BBs for the shoulder and 8 cars for the rush. Midday AAs were 4 cars and in the PM rush shoulder BBs were 4 cars and rush hour BBs were 6. Sometime circa 1960, the PM BBs were lengthened to 6 cars for the shoulder and 8 cars for the rush. After the PM rush, the consist were cut to 3 car AAs for the late PM and midnight. Sat AAs were 4 cars and Sun AAs were 3 cars and in any case PM and midnight were 3 cars all 7 days. As I remember it, midday As and Ds were 10 cars but cut to 8 after the PM rush. Oddly, Weekend As and Ds were also 8 cars. I seem to recall midday Es and Fs cutting to 8 cars during the week,and I assume they were also 8 cars on weekends although I really never rode the Queens IND that much during the 1960s. Midday and Sat IND headways were 8 min, Sun IND headways were 10 min and midday and weekend BMT headways were 12 min. After Chrystie, the midday headways on both the BMT and the IND were changed to 10 min to match although as I recall, the 14 St Line and the Myrtle el remained at 12 min since they didn’t merge onto any IND lines. Weekend headways on both the IND and BMT were set at the pre Chrystie IND headways for several years. |
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| (1427988) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 17:44:46 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 17:25:06 2017. In the 1960's, weekend E's and F's were 6 cars. |
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| (1427997) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Feb 19 19:04:39 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 17:44:46 2017. I remember seeing six-car Ethel trains at 42nd St. on Saturdays. The Abbott was 8 cars and AA trains were four. As Christmas approached in December of 1967, AA trains grew to 8 cars of R-32s on Saturdays while Abbott and Ethel trains were 10 cars. |
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| (1428009) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 20:16:48 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 17:44:46 2017. I thought they might have been, but as I said, I didn’t make it out to Queens on weekends at the time. |
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| (1428011) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 20:18:38 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Feb 19 19:04:39 2017. I seem to recall that after Chrystie, longer train consists were the rule. Once the AA/B became predominantly R-32, the shortest consist was 4 cars. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Handbrake on Mon Feb 20 12:33:27 2017, in response to 8 cars and the C, posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Feb 15 20:49:01 2017. All references to NYCT B1/B2 radio channels are based on tunnel antenna and VHF radio base station configurations in effect today. Grand Street B1 was originally configured out of DeKalb Tower. However at some later date, the B1 radio channel at Grand Street was handed over to Essex Street tower. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 20 16:13:13 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Handbrake on Mon Feb 20 12:33:27 2017. When originally installed, there were no separate B1 or B2 channels. The entire B division was on one frequency and certain areas on the radio consoles which monitored sections of both B1 and B2 were shared by console dispatchers on both divisions in the command center. There was a “Jay/Essex" area on the consoles which had to be punched in by the B1 dispatcher to handle J, Ms and Ks between Essex and Chambers and the B2 dispatcher to handle the Bs and Ds between Bway/Laf and Grand and the Fs between Bway/Laf and Jay St. The console area handling the BMT Eastern also handled the A line from S/O Grant to Lefferts and the Rockaways.The console button was labeled “Myrtle/Lefferts/Bedford” and the both the B1 console disp and the B2 console disp had to punch in the same area and filter out which radio transom missions belonged to whom. In the Southern Div, both eh eB1 and B2 dispatchers had to punch in the same area so that the B2 could monitor the F and the B1 disp could monitor the outdoor portions of the B. D, M and N. Even the underground portions of the divisions were not immune to confusion. The #7 Line is on B1 frequency but before B1/B2 separation was introduced, When I was monitoring the Flushing/Astoria console, I would hear 6 Av B2 transmissions bleeding into my console. Unlike the IRT which was planned by people who had a certain amount of transit knowledge, the B Div was planned by a bunch of nattering nabobs of cluelessness who seemed to never have consulted with the operating personnel when assigning areas of supervision. The Jay/Essex area stopped at Fulton St and the portion of the console assigned to 14 St south to 95 St picked up from that point which included Broad St south. That meant that the disp controlling Essex St had to also punch in the Bway/4 Ave area in order to monitor the J line south terminal. There seemed to be a total lack of logic as to how the areas of supervision were laid out on the B Div. |
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| (1428122) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 21 08:03:18 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 20 16:13:13 2017. Whale the B division is a hodpodge. The thing that A division got right (that is to say the IRT) is they designed themselves to prohibit tampering with their routes.IND/BMT merged and unmerged in so many contorted ways that it would be impossible to make a good radio system. LION wonders if with the advent of digital communications, the equipment could monitor either frequency, but each route having its own coding. The console operators could then just punch up the line they wanted to talk to and they would get that and only that. Physically such a thing is a snap, replacing all of those radios in a crackle. ROAR |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Tue Feb 21 14:23:42 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 17 08:58:04 2017. Guess what...some "A" & "C" trains are ending their runs at Chambers Street-WTC right now as 2/21/2017 at 2:20pm. To whit, this MTA Service Alert as posted now."MTA Service Status Service Change Posted: 02/21/2017 1:47PM Due to signal problems at Lafayette Av, the following service changes are in effect: Northbound A Subway trains are running local from Broadway Junction to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Some southbound A Subway and C Subway trains are terminating at Chambers St. Expect delays in northbound C Subway train service. Allow additional travel time." -William A. Padron ["And so it goes..."] |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Handbrake on Tue Feb 21 15:48:08 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 20 16:13:13 2017. The first iteration mega radio-net of the BMT/IND was resolved into todays configuration some time in the mid to late 70's when the B1/B2 channel configuration was implemented.The problem of a mega radio network persists in above ground areas. Train crews traveling over the Manhattan & Williamsburg Bridges hear a combination of Southern BMT, Eastern BMT, and IRT Flushing line B2 radio traffic as they glide over the east river. Operationally the old Eastern BMT division should have its own radio frequency pair (B3 Channel) to operate on, since no BMT radio channel changes, as of now, would be required except at Essex Street where a BMT/IND change over is performed today. With NYPD move to UHF, the TA owned VHF frequencies of the former Transit PD become an attractive alternative to a third radio system for RTO. |
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| (1428164) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 21 17:25:18 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Feb 21 14:23:42 2017. Wonder if that means they are pulling into the terminal tracks of the E train or relaying on the Brooklyn bound tracks ? |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 21 17:50:55 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 21 17:25:18 2017. I would imagine the E tracks since turning on the mainline might cause even more delays. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Feb 21 18:04:33 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Feb 21 14:23:42 2017. Yeah, because right now it would not be as easy to do with without jamming up the (F) and (M).I was thinking more in terms of a situation where for instance something happens where the (A) has to terminate at Jay Street in Manhattan and Utica or Broadway Junction from Lefferts/Far Rockaway. That's where I would send the (C) via the (M) and (J) to Broadway Junction. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Feb 22 10:45:02 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Handbrake on Tue Feb 21 15:48:08 2017. And the BMT used railroad frequencies, while the IND used civil frequencies since it was not a railroad, where the BMT was.ROAR |
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| (1428233) | |
Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by handbrake on Wed Feb 22 12:20:42 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Feb 22 10:45:02 2017. And the BMT used railroad frequencies, while the IND used civil frequencies since it was not a railroad, where the BMT was.ROAR All FCC assigned radio frequencies & radio stations are civil frequencies. http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?ctid=1855 Transit Authority Frequency License Tone Description 156.10500 KRB407 67.0 PL SIGNALS 160.84500 127.3 PL Yard 161.19000 WNGX516 127.3 PL IRT 161.50500 KTA927 127.3 PL BMT 161.56500 KTA927 127.3 PL IND 470.38750 KGK700 Power Section 470.43750 141.3 PL SIR 470.48750 WPVS838 123.0 PL SIR MOW |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 22 17:00:07 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Feb 22 10:45:02 2017. The BMT was not a railroad, however it was the sole owner of the South Bkln RR which passed to the ownership of the City and eventually the NYCTA. I had heard that all the NYCTA’s radios are licensed under the So Bkln RR. |
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Re: 8 cars and the C |
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Posted by handbrake on Thu Feb 23 19:29:10 2017, in response to Re: 8 cars and the C, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 22 17:00:07 2017. All NYCT FCC issued licenses are assigned to a designated individual (Licensee) within NYCT. |
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