|
|
| Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North (1387659) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
[1 2] |
||
|
Page 2 of 2 |
||
|
| (1418337) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 14:49:43 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 2 21:44:35 2016. Like a lot of other illnesses, you know that something is wrong, yet you are reluctant to seek help for it. Please don't give me this, "He didn't know he had it!", BS! Other people told me that I fell asleep at the wrong time/place. I'm sure that other people told him the same thing! Now, he's trying to shift the blame to his employer! |
|
|
| (1418340) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 14:59:36 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 14:49:43 2016. no, he is not trying to shift the blame, he is proving that Metro North is partial guilty by not properly testing and not enforcing speed restrictions cause they rather favor on time performance over safety. |
|
|
| (1418342) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 15:28:11 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 14:59:36 2016. How the hell do you enforce speed restrictions on a 90mph train with theengineer fast asleep at the controls? He gets paid to drive the train and to follow all rules. I really HATE today's mentality about doing something wrong and trying to put the blame, partially or completely, on someone/something else! |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1418344) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 15:35:50 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 15:28:11 2016. I see you obvious have no idea how ATC or medial things work. but atc even if engineer ignored speed or was asleep would put the train in emergency as its coming up on a 30 mph restriction(ps there is no 90 mph anywhere near that area). same happened in Back Bay and in Philladelphia, but let me not bore you with all things wrong at the time after poor tenure of president permut and his unqualified gang, most of Metro North management was replaced , retire or be fired, as safety was severely jeopardized.NTSB and FRA have been all over Metro North and for over 3 years now speed restrictions are so severe, due to cheating on safety standards. |
|
|
| (1418346) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 15:40:13 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 15:35:50 2016. Just hope your new restrictions work the next time a train engineer zones out from sleep apnea! |
|
|
| (1418348) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 15:46:46 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 15:40:13 2016. currently all engineers are being screened for sleep apnea and the CPAP machines downloaded to make sure patient complies. speed restrictions are now in place and all equipment used has alerters.now had railroad done so before there would not be any dead people, no wrecked train and no blame game. thanks for for making the case for Mr.Rockefeller's point. |
|
|
| (1418352) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 3 15:59:22 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 15:28:11 2016. You need to understand how ATC/ASC can work using signal indications as speed limits. MN did not do it. LIRR does, and Amtrak does, though not in enough places so as to prevent 188's wreck. The point is, it would never have gotten to 90MPH in the first place. |
|
|
| (1418353) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 16:37:47 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 3 15:59:22 2016. Mr Rockefellers train never got to 90 , track speed between yonkers curve(50 mph) is 75 mph, when he spaced out train got upto 82 mph.or 7 mph over speed limit. |
|
|
| (1418368) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 18:13:09 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 3 14:49:43 2016. It may have been acquired gradually over the years. I had a perfectly good operating career with NYCTA and had no problems staying awake even when doing a bit of pickin’ and grinnin’ a few nights a week. After i retired, I noticed that no matter how much sleep I got I would wake up tired and checked with my doctor and after a few tests found I had sleep apnea although I never found out how severe a case since I am no longer in a safety sensitive position and really don’t feel like sleeping with some sort of a pseudo fishbowl over my face. The point is that Mr Rockefeller may have developed it relatively recently and not suffered sufficient symptoms to set off any red flags (pun intended) until it got to the point where it was too late. |
|
|
| (1418369) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 18:15:25 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Dec 3 12:55:26 2016. From what I have seen, he was not dismissed but received a disability pension, not exactly the same thing. |
|
|
| (1418370) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 18:17:53 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Dec 2 21:32:12 2016. I had read somewhere that he did get a disability pension. Maybe if not from M/N possibly from RR retirement which is federal. |
|
|
| (1418384) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 19:01:54 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 18:15:25 2016. He got disability pension from Railroad retirement, but MN did not sign off on it, so it is in limbo and will not sign off on occupational disability for MTA.they want him to resign (and therefor any benefits) so they forced him to sue. |
|
|
| (1418396) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 3 20:03:37 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 12:15:41 2016. Civil discovery can be a very powerful inducement to settle. I don't get to keep my cards turned over. There are many times when one side of a case does not want the other sides lawyers rummaging through the skeletons in their closets. Very often they have things they really don't want to come out, and are willing to offer large sums in exchange for a non disclosure agreement as part of the settlement. |
|
|
| (1418403) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 20:30:12 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 3 20:03:37 2016. Exactly. Probably rather than expose the entire operation of M/N to discovery, the railroad will likely settle. |
|
|
| (1418418) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 3 21:28:20 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 20:30:12 2016. The warnings to MN about safety are not new, the first emails or internal memos that surface with MN bosses putting a pricetag on safety items as an excuse for things not happening, and the floodgates open. |
|
|
| (1418421) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 3 22:19:24 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 3 21:28:20 2016. MN bosses putting a pricetag on safety itemsThey do cost money. And there still ought to be accountability on the part of the hoggers. Many other hoggers run through that curve at the right speed. |
|
|
| (1418425) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 3 22:39:51 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 3 22:19:24 2016. Yes, safety items do cost money, some quite a bit. But if an organization focuses on avoiding safety measures because of that cost it has very serious legal implications. That is the point I am making. And I certainly agree with the importance of accountability for one's actions. But this is a case where we still don't have all the facts as to whether or not the operator could have reasonably prevented the accident. There is not much of a case for personal accountability for the accident if in fact he was not aware of the medical condition. Medical conditions disable pilots on a regular basis, including some who die, tragedy is avoided because there are 2. Right now all we are doing is guessing, this is a long way from being settled. |
|
|
| (1418468) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 4 10:02:05 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 3 18:13:09 2016. This is when you get micro-bursts of sleep... Lasting no more than a second or two, but may take a nother second or two to reorient yourself. That's all it takes to enter a 30 mph curve at 85 mph.ROAR |
|
|
| (1418473) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Sun Dec 4 10:35:39 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 14:59:36 2016. One important point is that just because an illness manifests itself one way in one person doesn't mean it presents itself the same way in everyone. That is a total lack of understanding of how the disease process works. Think of it this way-some people have shortness of breath and chest discomfort for years and don't do anything about, some people who never had a symptom or hint, everyday people in both categories drop dead of heart attacks. |
|
|
| (1418616) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Dec 5 12:59:32 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 2 15:27:16 2016. that scumbag KNEW he had sleep apnea! He never told his bosses, so he would not lose his job. That's it- plain and simple!That's just your opinion. Doesn't make it true. |
|
|
| (1418814) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Dec 7 10:39:17 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by pragmatist on Sun Dec 4 10:35:39 2016. Right. A friend of mine has been diagnosed with sleep apnea, yet he doesn't just fall asleep during the day. His heart stops for awhile when he is asleep. Another friend always doses off during the day. He may be just sleep deprived. |
|
|
| (1418819) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 12:21:58 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Dec 3 15:46:46 2016. Okay, let me ask you this one. These engineers have physical exams, don't they? Isn't one of the questions about your difficulty sleeping properly? Remember, I have sleep apnea, so I am familiar with it. |
|
|
| (1418822) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Dec 7 12:57:59 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 12:21:58 2016. Why they ask/do now is different from what they asked/did back then. |
|
|
| (1418824) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 13:27:46 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 12:21:58 2016. Up till two years ago they did not ask, i have sleep Apnea too, they found it because of Heart arrhythmia, not because of being tired.Keep in mind Mr.Rockefeller had both his private and his company physical within a few weeks of accident and neither doctor diagnosed him with it. |
|
|
| (1418825) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dave on Wed Dec 7 13:30:12 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 12:21:58 2016. Can someone have sleep apnea and not be aware of it? |
|
|
| (1418826) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 13:33:47 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dave on Wed Dec 7 13:30:12 2016. yes cause it happens when you sleep. |
|
|
| (1418831) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Wed Dec 7 13:46:37 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 13:33:47 2016. In one of its more common presentations, the person wakes up for a brief second to allow them to breath, and they are not aware it occurred because of the brevity of the event. This may happen over and over during the night, denying the person the deeper sleep cycles that the body needs. Very often it gets discovered because their partner is awakened or kept up by heavy snoring or gasping, even when the sufferer is not aware. You think you got a good night of sleep, but the reality is you didn't. This is not the only form of this condition, but it is pretty common. |
|
|
| (1418842) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dave on Wed Dec 7 15:03:30 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 13:33:47 2016. So even when it happens during the day you're not aware that you fell asleep for a minute? |
|
|
| (1418849) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 16:39:10 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dave on Wed Dec 7 15:03:30 2016. sleep apnea causes you to be tired, it does not happen when your awake. being tired can have many reasons , stress, to much work, wrong food,sleep apnea, and many other reasons, but daytime naps or micro naps do not mean you have sleep apnea. |
|
|
| (1418850) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 16:40:10 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by pragmatist on Wed Dec 7 13:46:37 2016. correct. |
|
|
| (1418884) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 21:08:46 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by pragmatist on Wed Dec 7 13:46:37 2016. I have sleep apnea, but my snoring and nodding off were noticed by several people, who called it to my attention. Now, I sleep well with my C-Pap machine. Unless this guy lived alone, someone must have told him about his condition. Also, I have yet to hear that Mr Rockefeller told his supervisors and/or Metro-North doctors that he had this condition and that they ignored it. |
|
|
| (1418905) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Thu Dec 8 07:56:14 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 21:08:46 2016. So far, any reports that I have seen refer to the condition as undiagnosed, if that is true than that would support what you say about MN. Whether or not anyone else noticed it and brought it to his attention in a manner that triggered any alarm, I have no idea. |
|
|
| (1418909) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 8 08:15:02 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 7 21:08:46 2016. You are assuming facts not in evidence. |
|
|
| (1418917) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 8 09:58:29 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Dec 7 10:39:17 2016. Yes. Once is sleep deprived. Once can be deprived because of sleep apnea.But there are different kinds of sleep apnea. Obstructed airway sleep apnea is treated with a CPAP machine. It will not help apnea caused by neurological or cardiac issues. The sleep test diagnooses for all kinds of sleep apnea, on of our monks has both obstructive and neurological causes for his apnea. Apnea simply means "not breathing" During an obstructive episode of sleep apnea, you stop breathing, your CO2 levels go up, you awake, and then you start to breathe again. You can see why such a person would be sleepy during the day. ROAR |
|
|
| (1418919) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 8 10:04:23 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 13:27:46 2016. It is difficult to look for. the Doctor will ask if you are sleeping well, and you will say "Yes" (usually) because you do not realize that there is an issue. You got up because you thought your bladder was full. No, you awoke because CO2 levels were building, and then you realized that your bladder needed attention. Had you not been awakened by an increased CO2 level you would have slept through the event and your bladder would not have bothered you. It can hold a lot more than you might think. I can hold up to 1000 cc and not feel an urge to go.So a quick question about "are you sleeping well" will not evoke an answer that would lead a practitioner to investigate sleep apnea. The Sleep tests are expensive, and involve an all night test in a sleep laboratory to diagnose the problem, and another visit to titrate a solution for a CPAP machine. ROAR |
|
|
| (1418920) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Thu Dec 8 10:05:17 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 8 09:58:29 2016. Some OSA cases are treated by surgery, usually when CPAP or an oral appliance does not work or can not be tolerated by the patient. CPAP seems to be the first line, the newer design masks and machines are a big leap forward. |
|
|
| (1418922) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 8 10:09:09 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 7 16:39:10 2016. When you are sleep deprived you may have moments of Micro-Sleep. Bursts of sleep, perhaps under one second in length, but that is enough to derail a train.From Wiki: ******************* A micro-sleep (MS) is a temporary episode of sleep which may last for a fraction of a second or up to 30 seconds where an individual fails to respond to some arbitrary sensory input and becomes unconscious.[1][2] MSs occur when an individual loses awareness and subsequently gains awareness after a brief lapse in consciousness, or when there are sudden shifts between states of wakefulness and sleep. In behavioral terms, MSs manifest as droopy eyes, slow eyelid-closure, and head nodding.[2] In electrical terms, microsleeps are often classified as a shift in electroencephalography (EEG) during which 4–7 Hz (theta wave) activity replaces the waking 8–13 Hz (alpha wave) background rhythm.[3] MSs often occur as a result of sleep deprivation, though normal non-sleep deprived individuals can also experience MSs during monotonous tasks.[4] Some experts define microsleep according to behavioral criteria (head nods, drooping eyelids, etc.), while others rely on EEG markers.[5] Since there are many ways to detect MSs in a variety of contexts there is little agreement on how best to identify and classify microsleep episodes. Microsleeps become extremely dangerous when they occur in situations that demand constant alertness, such as driving a motor vehicle or working with heavy machinery. People who experience microsleeps often remain unaware of them, instead believing themselves to have been awake the whole time, or to have temporarily lost focus.[6] *********** ROAR |
|
|
| (1418926) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 8 10:33:34 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 8 10:09:09 2016. How is a one second burst of sleep sufficient to derail a train?Rockefeller must have been asleep for many minutes, from a point in time where it was quite reasonable to be proceeding at 80+ mph to the point where he was pretty much at the curve. If he'd dozed off for 30 seconds there still would have been plenty of time to recover. |
|
|
| (1419056) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 9 10:09:13 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 8 10:33:34 2016. LION cannot give a direct answer, but...Suppose you are driving the train, a route that you have done thousands of times. You KNOW that curve is there, but before you arrive there you have a moment of micro-sleep, now you are past the point where you would normally have started to slow the train. You are momentarily lost, you are not sure of your surroundings, and now your train is headed nose first for the Hudson River. Controls will not avail you, because your wheels are not on the rails. You are in deep doo doo. End of story. |
|
|
| (1419058) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 10:22:20 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 9 10:09:13 2016. I've never operated a train, but I do operate an automobile. I've sometimes found myself distracted, and then when I regain attention I do realize there is something I should have done a few seconds earlier.Example: the exit ramp from I-80 east to I-95 south is very sharp. Once or twice I've suddenly realized that I should have started slowing down earlier. So I slow down, more rapidly than ideal, but I still make it around the curve. Extrapolating that kind of general mode of vehicle operation, I would strongly suspect that Rockefeller was asleep for more than a minute. If he should have started to slow down at time x, but woke up when he was still going 80+ at time x + 30 seconds, I believe he would have realized the situation within a few seconds and put on the brakes more heavily then. It would have been uncomfortable but not disastrous. |
|
|
| (1419094) | |
Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri Dec 9 15:22:33 2016, in response to Re: William Rockefeller sues Metro-North, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 8 10:33:34 2016. How many minutes is many? |
|
|
| (1421127) | |
William Rockefeller gets lifetime disability pension |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 24 21:51:11 2016, in response to William Rockefeller gets disability pension, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Mar 5 15:53:49 2016. Associated Press
|
|
|
| (1421138) | |
Re: William Rockefeller gets lifetime disability pension |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 25 00:15:40 2016, in response to William Rockefeller gets lifetime disability pension, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 24 21:51:11 2016. let us be clear. he probably should not run another train. That said, IMHO he is entitled to his pensions as they are detailed in the contracts/MOUs. I don't believe any of us would like to be in his shoes.My tuppence |
|
|
| (1421140) | |
Re: William Rockefeller gets lifetime disability pension |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 25 00:56:53 2016, in response to William Rockefeller gets lifetime disability pension, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 24 21:51:11 2016. I would suspect that as part of the confidentiality regarding his pension, he will drop his lawsuit against M/N. |
|
|
[1 2] |
||
|
Page 2 of 2 |
||
