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| 72nd and Broadway (1410363) | |
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| (1410363) | |
72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Sep 27 23:29:53 2016 My other station.....Was on an uptown 3 that had to go local after 72 yesterday. I watched the move from the RFW. We went over the typical diamond crossover, not to the local track but to another track that then went over another switch to the local track. Why that extra track. That got me to a track map and I now see that north of the station there's a tail track. What it's for? |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Sep 28 10:16:50 2016, in response to 72nd and Broadway, posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Sep 27 23:29:53 2016. The track is also used for layups, put ins and gap trains. the short tail would be the end of that track so that there would be no chance of such trains encroaching on the mane lion.ROAR |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:22:48 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Sep 28 10:16:50 2016. Except for 96 St and Bkln Br. all the exp stations on the original IRT subway were arranged the same way with a short spur track between the lcl and exp tk entering the stations. The only reason that the S/B Lex N/O 14 St has only a simple diamond Xover is that when the platforms were extended in the 1950s, the track space for the spur tk was used for the S/B platform extension. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Allan on Wed Sep 28 19:43:13 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:22:48 2016. Was there one outside of the Grand Central station?I have seen the old 1905 Edison film showing the line from 14th St to GC and as the nb train approached the GC station there was only a single switch (track 4 to track 3 as I remember) south of the station. There was and still is no room for spurs north (west) of the station. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Sep 28 20:10:41 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:22:48 2016. Interesting, Randy. Are those spurs and tails long enough for a modern train? |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Wed Sep 28 21:43:15 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Sep 28 10:16:50 2016. Also one one on the CPW line between 72nd and 81st stations. Don't know how often that one is used, or if it's used at all. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by ModelRider on Thu Sep 29 11:05:02 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Fulton Frank on Wed Sep 28 20:10:41 2016. IIRC, the spurs were only long enough for a four car IRT local train. |
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| (1410525) | |
Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by ModelRider on Thu Sep 29 11:15:06 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Wed Sep 28 21:43:15 2016. It's used a lot for work moves. There also used to be a put-in on the A that laid up there. |
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| (1410568) | |
Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 14:01:55 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Allan on Wed Sep 28 19:43:13 2016. Don’t forget that the track configuration of the present T/Sq shuttle has been greatly modified since its original 1904 construction. According to the IRT’s own book about the construction of the subway, the track configuration at the original Gr/Cent was the same as 72 St. |
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| (1410602) | |
Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Sep 29 15:42:56 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 14:01:55 2016. Could you specify the page(s) the information is on?I looked thru 2 editions of the IRT book "The New York Subway" (1979 printing and 1991 printing) and found nothing even alluding to the track layout at 14th St, 72nd St and GC. And as I said the 1905 Edison movie does not show a spur track south of Grand Central. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 17:43:15 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Allan on Thu Sep 29 15:42:56 2016. I can’t recall the exact page, but there is reference made to an area S/O Gr/Cent "where there are 5 tracks” which would seem to indicate they type of track layout that was there. I also recall a video made from a movie of the day that the IRT opened in 1904 which clearly does show the track arrangement S/O G/Cent with the spur. As for the N/E of the G/Cent shuttle station the switches from tk 1 to tk 3 which were altered after the 1965 fire, utilized the spur to get trains to.from tk 3 to tk 1 and back whenever the train on tk 3 had to be replaced. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Sep 29 20:50:44 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 17:43:15 2016. That spur you refer to is actually a part of track 2 that was left in place in order to do the moves from 1 to 3. That remained in place until the 1990's (IIRC) when they removed that track 2 remnant and did a direct switch between tracks 1 & 3. And that is actually west of the station, not east.I will look at the book again to see what references there are to Grand Central. |
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| (1410686) | |
Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Sep 29 21:20:17 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 17:43:15 2016. "but there is reference made to an area S/O Gr/Cent "where there are 5 tracks"Are you sure that this isn't a reference to the Spring St station where there was a spur track between the express tracks? Post cards of the era did show this refer to it a the 5 track subway. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 30 13:00:55 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Allan on Thu Sep 29 21:20:17 2016. The book makes specific reference to the immediate Gr/Cent area. |
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| (1410823) | |
Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Allan on Fri Sep 30 15:31:22 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 30 13:00:55 2016. randy - you must be thinking of a different book.I doubled checked my copies of the IRT book (The New York Subway Its Construction and Equipment) and even went to the scanned version at nycsubway.org and did a search for the terms Grand Central and also 42 St (actually 42d St back in those days). Nothing came up for Grand Central and only a minor item came up for 42 St. I do recall a mention in another book (I think it was one of Stan Fischler's) about a spur track just outside of Grand Central where August Belmont stored the Mineola. There is supposedly an entrance to the Belmont Hotel to where the spur was. I also looked again at the 1905 Edison film 14th St to 42nd St in the Library of Congress archives and nothing shows as the n/b local approached Grand Central other than a switch from track 4 to track 3. https://www.loc.gov/item/00694394/ It would be nice if you can remember exactly which book and page and what film you saw. Based on what I have found (and I looked every place I can think of) there was not a spur track set up like 72nd St at the original Grand Central station. If anyone else has any ideas - sound off. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by jabrams on Fri Sep 30 23:23:09 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by Allan on Fri Sep 30 15:31:22 2016. Before the master tower was set up at Times Square, where was the tower located to operate the switches both North and South of 72nd Street? |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 1 19:26:02 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by jabrams on Fri Sep 30 23:23:09 2016. As per typical IRT practice, there were probably 2 separate towers, one for the north end and one for the south end. The reason I say “probably" is because, certain IRT towers had separate interlocking machines for opposite ends of stations but both were located physically in the same tower structure. Nostrand Jct for example, had separate towers for the upper level and the lower level but both were in the same tower room. Whether or not the machines in the towers I described were ever in separate structure, I don’t know. They may have been moved together at some point in order to save labor so that one Tw/M could operate both machines. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 2 14:19:38 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 1 19:26:02 2016. But, where would the tower be? Between the tracks or at the end of the 66yth St, 72nd St., or 79th Street stations? |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 2 17:01:20 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 2 14:19:38 2016. The book on the IRT showed photos of interlocking machines out on the platform exposed to the public with no actual structure around them. Also, per IRT practice, most IRT towers were somewhere out in the tunnel in there wall. I don’t actually know where 72 St tower would have been since by the time I started railfanning, the switches at 72 St were controlled from T/Sq master tower. |
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Re: 72nd and Broadway |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Oct 3 00:59:12 2016, in response to Re: 72nd and Broadway, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 2 17:01:20 2016. The 1905 IRT film clip shows the tower, just before GC that is wholly or partly in the tunnel. Would be great if there were existing interior photos, or doc. w/repro of model board.Was destroyed most likely, when shuttle was separated from E. & W. trunks for the H system. Wasn't there a tower in the tunnel, east of GC Flushing line station? |
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