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| Re: W coming back November 7 (1409825) | |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 13:13:47 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 27 08:03:37 2016. Yes, the R was local on Broadway. So it had to cross the plant at 57. In my very early railfanning days on Saturdays the 2 express tracks at 57 had to relay the R,N, & T. Midnights and Sundays it was just the R & N as the West End was a shuttle to 36/4.It was doable since the system was not grade timed to death, slowing down the trains. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 13:14:49 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 13:13:47 2016. It was the RR actually! |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 13:39:16 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 26 17:21:36 2016. They didn’t. The cars on the QJ had KK, LL, M, and QJ signs since they were based at ENY Yd. The D cars only had signs for the CC and D since they were assigned to Concourse Yd. |
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| (1410280) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 13:49:48 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 26 18:49:05 2016. The R-15s also had NP door engines but for some reason starting with the R-17s up to the R-28s, the door equipment was supplied by Consolidated Car Heating. With the R-30s, the TA went back to NP. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 13:52:30 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 26 19:18:47 2016. I once rode a Brighton Lcl on Qns Blvd that was D types. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 27 14:52:59 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by zac on Sun Sep 25 17:10:35 2016. I wonder why the mgt of the TA didn't insist that any post war car orders must be able to mate with the pre war models. As in Lo-Vs running in the same train as R-14s or R-1/9s running with R-32s for example.Over at the LIRR back when, their PRR mgt insisted that their later (Pre M-1) car orders,were to be manufactured so they'd be able to mu together in the same train with older cars. It was quite common, espicially in rush hours, to see Pullman MP-72s in their Worlds Fair paint running with MP-54s. The TA sure could have used flexibility back in the 60s & 70s. Just wonderin' |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 14:57:07 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Sep 27 05:54:09 2016. Under “normal” circumstances, on both Sat and Sun Fkln trains ran lcl on the Brighton Line to supplement the local service which actually ran exp in Manhattan even though the trains were signed as “Brighton Locals.” On Sundays during the summer, Franklin trans ran exp on the Brighton Line through Stillwell and up the Sea Beach middle tracks in both directions and terminating at Chambers St. The Fkln crews only operated between Fkln and Stl where extra crews either on OT or from the extra list operated to Chambers and back. I’m not sure how long the Fkln Shtl platforms actually were buy I was told that although 8 ABs could clear the switch at Dean St, 8 cars would not be able to berth at the Fkln Av platform. All the movies I’ve seen of the Sunny Summer Sunday specials show 4 car trains of ABs which would be one 3 car B unit and a single A car. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 15:54:17 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 13:14:49 2016. Yes, and it ran via the tunnel so there was no switching at Prince St. Before the 1961 schedule changes when the Brighton lcls terminated at 57 St during off hours, it had to Xover at Prince since it ran via the Bridge. |
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| (1410313) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 16:02:19 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 27 14:52:59 2016. You could consider the R10 for the BMT/IND and the R12 for the IRT the new technology trains for their time. They had modern self lapping brakes and did not need the brake plug. Just the brake handle and reverser.Incomparable like an R62/62A is incomparable with an R142; and why an R32 is incomparable with an R160. Because these are new technology cars of today. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 16:02:20 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 27 14:52:59 2016. You could consider the R10 for the BMT/IND and the R12 for the IRT the new technology trains for their time. They had modern self lapping brakes and did not need the brake plug. Just the brake handle and reverser.Incomparable like an R62/62A is incomparable with an R142; and why an R32 is incomparable with an R160. Because these are new technology cars of today. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 27 18:28:31 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 13:14:49 2016. Yeah, I know. I wasn't gonna correct you on that little detail :) |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:52:30 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 26 19:22:15 2016. I've always preferred solid trains. I remember going nuts over those R-32/42 D consists, but didn't sat anything. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:53:55 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 26 19:11:57 2016. So they were still going the Borgaschmord route when you were there a year later. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:55:42 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 13:49:48 2016. I think it's safe to assume the R-12s and R-14s had National Pneumatic electric door engines. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 27 19:56:04 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:53:55 2016. Yep. Didn't happen often, but it did here and there. When I was there, it was mostly arnines and 32's all lined up in a row. :) |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:57:55 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 26 19:34:21 2016. I've seen one photo with an R-10 at one point and presumably a second R-10 at the other point. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 20:01:48 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 16:02:19 2016. Unfortunately, despite the fact that all the SMEEs were fully compatible with each other, it seems that the NTTs don’t share the same ability. Even R-62s and R62As don’t seem to run with each other except for yard moves although they are supposed to be technically compatible. AFAIK, the R-14ss can’t MU with R-142As and R-143s can’t run with R-160s. I don’t understand why the MTA doesn’t require all the NTTs to be fully compatible. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 27 20:04:57 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:57:55 2016. Wild and wooly things needed to be done about making service back then. It was one thing if you had a train and no crew, but Ronan would have somebody's neck if there was a crew and no train. Ask Randyo. :) |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 27 21:26:06 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 20:01:48 2016. And I guess the R179s will also be a small, non-compatible with anything else fleet? |
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| (1410362) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 27 23:05:47 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 16:02:20 2016. Understood as for the TA explination. But what I don't understand is how the LIRR was able to mate 1920s vintage cars with cars manufactured in the 1950s & '60s. Was the equiptment that radically different? Aren't there some basic similarities between all mu equiptment? The brake issue you mentioned seemed to be overcome by the LIRR folks. Why was it a stumbling block at the TA? |
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| (1410364) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 23:59:11 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 27 23:05:47 2016. When LIRR M1's came out, same for Metro North, those electrics could not be added with the old electrics.These were new tech also. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 28 07:50:42 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 27 23:59:11 2016. A few weeks ago, someone on here linked to a copy of the MTA's 5-year look back at their 1968 Plan for Action.In that document, the MTA is explicit that in the M1s, they were completely breaking with the past. All prior orders had to be compatible with everything back to 1905, and they claimed this limited the ability to modernize. While I'm not a mechanic or engineer of any kind, there is some logic to that. Sometimes a "clean break" is necessary. I know it's fun to dump on the MTA, and especially the agency's early management. But I think in this case, they were right. It was probably also necessary to make a clean break with the NTTs. But what I don't understand is why R143-R160-R179 are incompatible. The R160s seem to be a successful car class. They should have just ordered more of them. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:08:57 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 27 19:55:42 2016. Yes. the R12s through 16s had NP door engines. |
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| (1410421) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:09:53 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Sep 27 21:26:06 2016. Unless we hear otherwise, I guess so. |
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| (1410423) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:19:03 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 28 07:50:42 2016. Since I am not familiar with the mechanics of the NTTs, I can’t say for certain that the R-179s aren’t just the same car under a different contract number. The only visible difference that stands out right now are the trucks which are different from those on the R-160s but that may not rule out compatibility between them and the R-160s. |
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| (1410431) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 19:51:14 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 27 20:01:48 2016. Isn't there something with the door setup or switches that they won't mix R32's and R42's ? (Conductor position for 8 car R32 is same as R42). |
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| (1410436) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 20:07:09 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 28 07:50:42 2016. I thought it was computer license issues, you know like Android and Iphone or PC and MAC.On 3rd rail power, can an M7 MU with an M8 ? I tend to think not. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 20:17:13 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:08:57 2016. But did the R12/14/15 fleet collapse with door issues when it snowed (they were the out-doorsy Queens cars until 1963) ? |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 28 20:34:19 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 25 16:16:41 2016. IIRC the Standards were gone off the Queens IND by the end of 1962 when there were enough R-27/30s to go around & replace them. |
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| (1410442) | |
Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 20:40:58 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 28 20:34:19 2016. Yet a few lingered on the Brighton line until 1965. I guess the R30's could not get rid of them all. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 07:55:40 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:09:53 2016. Yeah. Seems silly to me. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 08:01:38 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 28 17:19:03 2016. Well, I'm not only not a current or former TA employee, I'm not even good at hammering a nail into a wall. So all I have to go on is the word of those with experience/knowledge.And one such poster (in this case, I think it was someone other than you) said that the R179s won't be compatible with anything else. As a rider and, frankly as a taxpayer, I can't understand why they'd do that. Sometimes if revolutionary change is needed, I can understand buying a large fleet incompatible with what came before, like the M1s or the R142 or R160. At least those cars can be switched within their fleet- if a unit breaks down, or sets need to be reconfigured. But 200 cars that can only operate with each other- especially when a large, modern fleet was just delivered? I don't get it. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by zac on Thu Sep 29 08:01:38 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 20:40:58 2016. Not that I recall. I remember railfanning around then and catching a standard on the West End at 62nd St and being surprised that there were still any left. Never on the Brighton though. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 08:09:24 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by zac on Thu Sep 29 08:01:38 2016. I lived on the Eastern Division back then. My first visit to the Southern Division was when the R32's had just taken over. The only Stnadards I saw were on the Franklin Shuttle.I actually had no idea the Triplexes ever existed until a couple of years later. My only source of news until the mid-1960's then was Trains magazine. I have seen plenty of picture of 6-car Standards on the Brighton and Astoria lines dated in 1965. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 08:32:45 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 08:01:38 2016. They already have the R143 orphan fleet of 200-something cars.Now they'll have the R179 in 2 flavors of orphans: 50 cars and 250 cars. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 13:40:18 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 08:32:45 2016. So the orphaned car class will be sub-orphaned? Seriously? This passes for management?Why couldn't they just have ordered more R160s? |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 13:52:20 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 20:17:13 2016. I didn’t ride the Flushing Line much till 1962 and never really noticed any problems. The R-16s on the Jamaica Line were a different story however. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 13:54:08 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 13:40:18 2016. I would guess that the real problem here is that of technological obsolescence. Back in the day when railcars were pretty much dumb mechanical beasties, a design could last for decades. As new cars replaced the old, mechanical progress and enhancements could still be done and remain compatible with the older equipment.With electronics and software, it's hard to remain in stasis for more than a couple of years before everything changes seemingly just for the sake of change. As an example, R143's harken back to the days of Windows XP being "new and shiny state of the art." XP has been dead now for a couple of years and we've gone through Vista (also dead), Windows 8 (whatever happened to 9? [grin]) and now 10. All of that in just so few years as but one example. The days of sticking to a proven design are long gone, all hail "constant improvement" and the need to toss everything away and do something else every year. :( |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 13:58:59 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 13:40:18 2016. Keep in mind that whet we refer to as car types are merely contract numbers. The R-179s could have been identical to the R-160s if the MTA had used the exact same specs in the R0-179 contract. A couple of examples of this are the IRT R-26s and 28s which were virtually identical and the R-27s and 30s with were the BMT versions and also virtually identical. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 14:01:32 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 13:54:08 2016. Myself, and my large employer are on Windows 7. There are not even rumors of getting beyond that. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 14:03:44 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 13:58:59 2016. Yes, but those SMEE cars were technologically glorified electric lawn-mowers by NTT car standards.LIRR MP54 of 1908 MU'd with the MP75 of 1963. (Same was not true on the New York Central or New Haven). |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by jrf2 on Thu Sep 29 14:16:08 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 13:54:08 2016. (whatever happened to 9? [grin]Heard something about some computers had trouble differenciating between Windows 9 and Windows 95. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 14:17:33 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 14:01:32 2016. You know you're going to have to sometime. The mess that was Vista caused me to write my own Operating System which I've been running ever since. Just yesterday, I had to fire up a Windows 10 box and to say that I can't believe what a pile of **** it is has to be the understatement of the century. But technology and the vendors don't care, it's what keeps the cash register ringing. :(By the time they got XP working (aside from the never-ending security holes) it was actually not bad at all. Neither is 7. I still wish though that Windows98 was still supported. It was very easy to code for that, and I'm a firm believer that if something works, just leave it the **** alone. Computers and technology are supposed to be used and just work, their purpose isn't to be perpetually screwing with it. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 14:23:06 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by jrf2 on Thu Sep 29 14:16:08 2016. Well ... I've taken this far enough off topic and need to stop, so I'll just leave this here. The legacy of Windows over the years is that every other version was good, and every other version blew goats. So for whatever reason, 9 never happened (which would have been the good one) and we can't have that. :)
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 14:27:45 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 14:17:33 2016. Obviously employees have no say in the matter. Everything from 8 through 10.0 is piece of shit - all pain / no gain. I think they will wait for 10.1 to be debugged before they junk 7. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 14:28:45 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 28 19:51:14 2016. Although the current door setup on the R-32s is set up the same as R-42s, there is no reason at all why the R-32s can’t be set up 4 X 4 like the R-160s since unlike the R-42s that only have C/R controls in the #2 cabs, R-32s have C/R controls in all cabs. I suspect that the R-32s and 42s aren’t mixed anymore is due to the MTA’s desire to keep the fleets separate primarily due to their different appearance. When the R-40Ms were still around, they were frequently mixed in with R-42s since the 2 car types weren’t radically different in appearance. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Sep 29 14:31:17 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 29 14:17:33 2016. even worseis that peripherals vendors don't write drivers for linux and its kin. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 14:40:47 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 14:03:44 2016. Not quite. The 1950 series NYC MUs were able to run with the 1964 NYC MUs with only a slight modification to the older MUs to actuate the dynamic braking of the newer cars which the older cars did not have. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 29 14:48:15 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 29 14:40:47 2016. I know, by NY Central pre and post war MU's could not mix. |
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Re: W coming back November 7 |
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Posted by Jace on Thu Sep 29 15:10:48 2016, in response to Re: W coming back November 7, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 29 13:40:18 2016. All R179s will be compatible with all other R179s, there will be no 'sub-orphans'. The R179s are generally similar to the R160s with the exception of the train's network which is why the two are incompatible.R143s and R160s are much more similar to each other but the differences in the communications systems like the FIND signs make the cars not fully compatible. Basically, they can run together but the signs, the TOD and the diagnostics won't work properly. Kawasaki/Alstom bid on the R179 contract with more R160s but lost. |
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