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| Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs (1406703) | |
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| (1406703) | |
Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 29 07:33:45 2016 Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs 86th Street Station on the 9th Avenue El opens. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 29 07:37:20 2016, in response to Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 29 07:33:45 2016. Thanks. That station, and the whole line's Dual Contract improvements, had a very short life indeed. Sadly... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 29 08:57:19 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 29 07:37:20 2016. Main: Only in New York would we build and scrap and entire subway division. (Okay it was an elevated division but you get the point.)Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 29 12:34:58 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 29 08:57:19 2016. Still...the routes Should have been improved upon and rebuilt to carry heavy steel cars...saving the time consuming chores of replacing them.So far,there has been only One effort to do such...and when that route finally done,it will only be a drop in the bucket as far as replacement goes. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 29 14:17:06 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 29 08:57:19 2016. The same was done with the Fulton St El though that was only partially upgraded. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Aug 29 19:37:11 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 29 12:34:58 2016. And we know why they weren't. Obviously, that generation could not have thought 60-80 years later mass transit would have the ridership it does today.I noted a while back how if the 3rd Avenue El had been rebuilt in the 1950's and '60s, it likely would have had numerous station consolidations on a line that would have seen 10-car trains, what had been the Park Row branch likely extended twice (first from Chambers to the World Trade Center in the early '70s and then Battery Park City in the '80s/early '90s) and then after 9/11 possibly seeing a third branch built that likely would today be known as the Brookfield Place branch (after the former World Financial Center) as part of rebuilding and strengthening the entire 3rd Avenue El (with what would have been 59th-60th Street moved north to 60th-63rd Street to include a transfer to the (F) for now and (Q) when the SAS starts as well as the 4/5/6/N/Q/R at 60th). |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 29 20:35:07 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Aug 29 19:37:11 2016. There was only one proposal to rebuild the 3rd Ave el for steel subway type cars. Before the Dual Contracts of 1913, the IRT proposed to run steel trains from a rebuilt 3rd Ave el, over the northside tracks of the Manhattan Bridge, into the lower (eastbound) platform of Nevins St. Manhattan bound 3rd Ave el trains would have curved to the right, just north of the upper Nevins St (hence, the unused lower Nevins St platform). The proposal was rejected in 1911. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:12:02 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 29 08:57:19 2016. Yes, I do. I wouldn't have quibbled with you calling it a "subway" division. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:17:28 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 29 12:34:58 2016. Yes. And the SAS (a/k/a the "Stubway") seems vastly overbuilt to me, in that it's so far underground. That must've added to the cost tremendously, and, if they plan to build the rest of it (or at least Segments 3&4) like that, will make it almost cost prohibitive.How much less would it have cost to build it by cut and cover, with sidewalk grates, as was done for most of the system, including what will be Segment 2, and even the Segment 1 stations? I know they claimed deep boring would be less disruptive to surface activities, but was it really? I went over there a lot in the past 8 years, and things were pretty disrupted topside!! |
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| (1406845) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Aug 30 10:37:56 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 29 12:34:58 2016. "Still...the routes Should have been improved upon and rebuilt to carry heavy steel cars...saving the time consuming chores of replacing them."I read somewhere that the business interests in Manhattan lobbied very heavily to get rid of the elevated lines. Do you think 3rd Avenue would be what it is today if the el was still there? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Aug 30 12:42:17 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Aug 30 10:37:56 2016. "Do you think 3rd Avenue would be what it is today if the el was still there?"They should have kept either the 3d or 2nd Ave El for not only mass transit needs but for tourism ala the Loop in Chicago. Rebuild it to heavier steel car specs with the Swiss Chalet stations & lattice style supports to remove any sterile feel. Thus making 19th century technology both pretty & functional at the same time. But real estate $$$ speaks louder than voices of nostalga & necessity. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Aug 30 13:41:21 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Aug 30 12:42:17 2016. Short term thinking. Though in fairness Chicago's plans to replace the Loop w/subways go back to 1911. CTA's dreams to actual mileage ratio mimics the IND Second System. |
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Re: 3rd Avenue EL |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 30 19:54:21 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 29 20:35:07 2016. That is true, but I was referring to what likely would have been the case IF they had decided to rebuild/strengthen rather than tear down the 3rd Avenue EL since it would have had to been rebuilt, first in the 1960s for the heavier subway cars that came later and again probably after 9/11 in part to strengthen the line but also in all likelihood to allow for CBTC, which likely would have been part of a post-9/11 rebuild of the 3rd Avenue EL if it had remained. |
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Re: 3rd Avenue EL |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 30 21:13:55 2016, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 30 19:54:21 2016. The last successful attempt to keep the 3rd Ave el running in Manhattan was in 1953. The newly formed NYC Transit Authority had scheduled the entire Manhattan portion, from City Hall to 149th Street for closure at 11:59PM, 12/31/53. Enough voices were heard in opposition to postphone the el' demise until 5/12/55, except for the City Hall terminal. That spur was torn down by the Great Atlantic Salvage Co in the spring of 1954, after closing on 12/31/53. By the end of 1956, the entire section of the Manhattan 3rd Ave el was gone. WHAT 1960's rebuilding are you dreaming about, this time? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 30 23:11:48 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Aug 30 12:42:17 2016. IAWTP, especially because the 3rd Ave el (I believe) stations had some pretty good stained glass on them. Think what they would be like if the el was strengthened, but the stations kept most of their early 1900's feel. |
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Re: 3rd Avenue EL |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Aug 31 00:34:15 2016, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 30 21:13:55 2016. You'll see it in the A&E miniseries 'The Wally World of NYCTA' in the fall of '17. |
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Re: 3rd Avenue EL |
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Posted by ren on Wed Aug 31 01:15:05 2016, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 30 21:13:55 2016. He said IF they had decided to rebuild. Learn how to read. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 31 10:44:56 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:17:28 2016. My thoughts and sentiments,EXACTLY. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Aug 31 13:32:02 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:17:28 2016. I disagree. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 31 13:39:30 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Aug 30 10:37:56 2016. I think that had it survived, Manhattan would be a mirror of itself, with the wealthy business people residing on the West Side, and the East Side being more bohemian. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 31 20:00:25 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:17:28 2016. My thoughts and sentiments,EXACTLY. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 31 20:12:25 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:17:28 2016. Right On! |
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Re: 3rd Avenue EL |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 21:28:09 2016, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue EL, posted by ren on Wed Aug 31 01:15:05 2016. He said, "...rebuilt first in the 1960's...". It was gone by 1956, long before the 1960's! THAT'S what I was talking about!!! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 21:31:33 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 31 20:00:25 2016. Now, imagine the SAS construction for a 4 track subway with more stations! Opening date- 2030+. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 1 14:15:46 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 30 10:17:28 2016. True.The cut and cover method would have been somewhat closer to the surface...and there are plenty of stations built using that particular method which are fairly deep below,such as Lexington Ave 63rd st station. The reason the stations May have been built along Second Avenue using deep bore,drill and blast technology could be to accommodate crowd projections... But also,this style of subway building is POPULAR around the world...and even though I hate to say it...it also drives up costs compared to the traditional method. 96Th st had to be built using cut and cover...since the earlier tunnels were also close to the surface...and served as a staging area for the TBM. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Sep 1 14:19:01 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 31 20:12:25 2016. How so? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Sep 2 13:05:12 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - August 29, 1912 - The Book of First Runs, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Sep 1 14:19:01 2016. bump |
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