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| Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question (1396559) | |
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Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Displaced Angeleno on Fri May 20 04:00:29 2016 The Fulton Street local tracks end in bumper blocks at the west end of the Court Street station. The subway grating on Schermerhorn extends 1/4 of the way west from Court Street to Clinton Street.Considering that Schermerhorn Street ends at Clinton Street and the tunnel is relatively shallow at that point (only two flights down), were there any plans to extend Schermerhorn Street west through Brooklyn Heights should they have needed to extend the tunnel as part of the Second System? |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Allan on Fri May 20 10:59:23 2016, in response to Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Displaced Angeleno on Fri May 20 04:00:29 2016. The original intent was to continue into Manhattan from the Court Street station and to connect around where the Chambers St-WTC station on the E is. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Fri May 20 12:47:36 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Allan on Fri May 20 10:59:23 2016. That part I understood, but there's no Schermerhorn Street to tunnel under past Clinton Street. I was wondering what the Brooklyn alignment of that tunnel would be. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri May 20 13:09:11 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by displaced angeleno on Fri May 20 12:47:36 2016. A new street cut through the block to the water front was the plan.But,as you can see,that didnt pan. The next plan was to deep bore the line using the shield method..then pull it back through the new tunnel to the cassion at the river front. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 20 13:14:09 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by displaced angeleno on Fri May 20 12:47:36 2016. there's no Schermerhorn Street to tunnel under past Clinton Street.There was no 6th Avenue below W 3rd Street before the IND was built. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 20 14:34:38 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 20 13:14:09 2016. True.Something would have to give on this because that is how I would connect the SAS to Fulton in Phase 4, via a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 20 16:41:19 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Allan on Fri May 20 10:59:23 2016. There was supposed to have been a connection from the IND to the BMT under Church St,where it intersects Fulton St. Then, continue south through the Montague tunnel, where the tracks would diverge onto Clinton St, turn onto Schermerhorn St, and connect to the Court St station. That was one of several proposals for extending Court St westbound into Manhattan. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 20 16:51:21 2016, in response to Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Displaced Angeleno on Fri May 20 04:00:29 2016. Here's an interesting point: Is the Schermerhorn Street tunnel actually deep enough to make it down the slope of downtown Brooklyn and under the East River? I think that Borough Hall on the 4/5 is about as deep below the street level as Court Street (HH), so I'd say yes. Anyone want to comment? |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri May 20 17:18:51 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Edwards! on Fri May 20 13:09:11 2016. I imagine if the plans to extend the line west had gone forward, the street would have been through routed like 6 Avi Manhattan. Probably the only reason the street was not through routed was because the plans were shelved. A similar situation would have existed with S 4 St had the Utica/Stuyvesant subway been completed. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri May 20 17:20:20 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 20 16:41:19 2016. I had also heard that the bellmouths S/O Whitehall would have been used for a new tunnel connecting to Court St. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 20 17:54:55 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Fri May 20 17:20:20 2016. Let us not forget those Court St proposals for the 2nd Ave subway, via Nassau St, or another connection to the Montague St tunnel, via Water St. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri May 20 20:23:12 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 20 13:14:09 2016. Can the same be said about Greenwich Ave? Something tells me it came into being when the 8th Ave. line was built. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 20 20:59:43 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri May 20 20:23:12 2016. Absolutely not. It dates back to at least the 17th Century. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 20 22:25:22 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 20 14:34:38 2016. Bore under Court St. station, keep the Transit Museum there. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat May 21 03:08:34 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Fri May 20 17:18:51 2016. If the Utica/Stuyvesant subway had been completed, what would have been the future of the Jamaica line. Would it have been razed? Would the BMT east of Delancy-Essex have descended into a tunnel on the Brooklyn side, to become the outside local tracks at S. 4th St.?Also on the 1929 map once the Utica Stuyvesant subway turns SE onto Utica AVE, there is a short stretch with no transit route at all, between the Utica Ave. route and Bway East NY. There are slo turnouts for a two track Jamaica Ave subway, east of B'way Junction on the IND correct? Would any plans have ever been designed to complete the Stuyvesant Ave. route directly to the B'way East NY location and perhaps, continue as the Jamaica Ave. subway (with perhaps, fulton st. tracks' extension merging with it? (a four track line maybe? two fulton St. & two Stuyvesant route?) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat May 21 08:18:50 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 20 20:59:43 2016. I see. The builders certainly took advantage of that, didn't they? |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 21 08:45:38 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat May 21 08:18:50 2016. Yes. It was tailor made for that. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 13:43:37 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 20 22:25:22 2016. I would not do that unless absolutely necessary.The Transit Museum could be moved if that were an issue. I think having an active station that would see considerable use is more important than the Transit Museum. I believe a re-activated Court Street Station be the furthest point south there would be a station if that happened as well. We are DECADES off from such happening anyway right now. I think if they knew the plan included re-activating Court Street for better transit options, they could and would have time to find a new spot for the transit Museum. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 13:45:27 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 20 16:51:21 2016. If anything, even more so because they have a little more real estate there to the west before it would go underground from what I see. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 21 14:16:52 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 13:45:27 2016. Well, how deep are the Court St station tracks? A good starting point. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 21 14:45:38 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Express Rider on Sat May 21 03:08:34 2016. From the few plans I have seen, the S 4 St subway was supposed to come from the 2 middle tracks at 2 Av/Hstn and the tracks coming from the bellmouths S/O Canal and passing over E Bway. 4 tracks (which ones weren’t really clear) would go down Stuyvesant/Utica and the other 2 would go east along Bushwhack Av and eventually along Myrtle and joining with the proposed subway coming from Roosevelt upper. The Utica subway would have emerged onto an el structure in the area of Ave M and continued farther south into the Marine Pk area possibly going across Ave S and down Nostrand to join with the extension of the IRT Nostrand Av Line which would also have been elevated at that point. As for the Fulton St subway, I have a preliminary plan showing the Fulton St subway continuing straight out Fulton past Bway Jct rather than swinging south to Pitkin. I have also seen proposals for the Fulton subway to swing east along Liberty Av instead of the present Pitkin Av routing. In all of the 3 scenarios, the outer end of the Fulton subway was to connect to the Liberty Av structure of the Fulton St el which it eventually did. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 21 14:47:03 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 20 17:54:55 2016. True, But those came later. The original plan was via Whitehall which would have connected Court St with the E platforms at Chambers/WTC. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat May 21 16:16:38 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Sat May 21 14:45:38 2016. Thank you!re: Bushwhack Av - typo but funny :) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 21 19:01:42 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Express Rider on Sat May 21 16:16:38 2016. Autocorrect follies are always fun. :) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 21 20:12:09 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 20 20:59:43 2016. It dates back to at least the 17th Century.Huh? You're saying that Greenwich Ave can be traced back to some 17th century farm lane or Indian path? |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 21 20:22:08 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Sat May 21 14:45:38 2016. Another plan that I saw in the Brooklyn Eagle was from B'way-ENY to Jamaica Ave, to Ridgewood Ave, to Rockaway Blvd (I assume a subway/el transfer at 96th St), to the LIRR tracks to the Rockaways. No possible stations,if any, were listed. I assume this would be a using the express tracks, with the local ones diverging at Pennsylvania Ave (?) to either Liberty or Pitkin Aves. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 20:23:17 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 21 14:16:52 2016. Well, we know Court Street had a full mezzanine because the TM is on it above the tracks. So it's at least 15 and more likely 20-30 feet. That is a big help. |
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Re: Whitehall to Court Street |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 20:30:25 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Sat May 21 14:47:03 2016. That would have made sense, especially in the days before the WTC was built.You have to wonder why that was not thought of in the original construction of the WTC in 1966 to do that, or at least connect the (E) train at WTC to the Broadway line after Chambers where it could have almost come on at a straight angle. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 21 20:30:35 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 20:23:17 2016. 30 feet sounds good. The track diagrams show the Court St ones going under the tracks from Schermerhorn to Jay Sts. But they run over the Smith st tracks from Bergen to Jay Sts. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 21 20:39:13 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Fri May 20 17:20:20 2016. Interesting! I wonder if it would have been a direct boring to Schermerhorn, or via State st or Atlantic Ave to Clinton? |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat May 21 21:21:21 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Fri May 20 17:20:20 2016. original intention was to be a dekalb ave.bypass using either the lirr`s atlantic ave abandonded tunnel or using another street. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 21 22:05:44 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by AlM on Sat May 21 20:12:09 2016. Yes. Farm lane. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 21 22:15:49 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 21 19:01:42 2016. My spell checker seems to be a bit hyperactive. A few times I have been able to catch the “corrections” it makes and I find that often it types out letters nowhere near what I typed on the keyboard so it’s not just a typo. |
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Re: Whitehall to Court Street |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 21 22:22:06 2016, in response to Re: Whitehall to Court Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 20:30:25 2016. Even if it had been though of, making the connection at the time would have been complicated and prohibitively expensive. Remember at the time the original plan was developed, the IND was a tool of Mayor Hylan specifically intended to put the BMT and probably also the IRT out of business. Since the Dual Contract subways were city property only operated by the private companies , Hylan had no scruples about reclaiming potions of the BMT for city operation. By the time the WTC was built, the city had taken over the privates and the entire system was under MTA operation so there was really no political reason to follow through with many of the IND second system proposals. Such a connection while useful was deemed unnecessary. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 00:12:24 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by randyo on Sat May 21 22:15:49 2016. Yeah, it tends to look for words that it already knows, and adding a word it doesn't know to it can be a pain in the ass. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 22 00:20:12 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 00:12:24 2016. as perhaps in being audited by the IRS - pain in the a$$ets |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 00:38:38 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Express Rider on Sun May 22 00:20:12 2016. Funny you should bring them up. They made a hot mess out of our refund this year and bingbong and our attorney are in the process of tearing them a new, wide one. :) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 22 03:40:10 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 00:38:38 2016. maybe wide enough to run a freight train throughgood luck - sounds like you may be able to kneecap'em (ouch!) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 03:55:14 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Express Rider on Sun May 22 03:40:10 2016. We never lose. :)Can't go into details of course, but the IRS manager who reviewed our paperwork actually spoke an expletive when they saw the details and spreadsheets. Their booboo goes back to 2005. They owe us a sheetload of money, plus vigorish. (grin) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 22 06:21:36 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 03:55:14 2016. and maybe a "bit'o'honey" more for pain and sufferng?**hope it all works out and you end up with enough "found" money to buy an island somewhere (you don't want the one with Nassau and Suffolk though) re: "we never lose" - I like that. A keenly positive attitude, not just weathering the storm(s) but meeting them face to face and winning. **if you're in Rockland county, it's referred to as "pain and Suffern" (groan)_ |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 06:28:27 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Express Rider on Sun May 22 06:21:36 2016. Heh. No such luck, but they screwed us up to the tune of 6 figures over the years, that's enough win in my book. I actually get my money back after the Bush administration screwed us, and that's all good. :)And yeah, they came after us this year for "unpaid taxes" dating back to then, and we countered with "not only did we pay you that outrageous amount then, but we even let it slide because we're good citizens and we don't want no sheet." WELL ... screw you and the cat you rode in on, if you're gonna be like that, well then ... check out these receipts, arsewipes. Heh. And yeah, used to ride the bus through there (Suffern) onto Route 17 when I lived in Zoo Paltz and made my living taking care of TV studios in the city before I moved to the REAL "upstate." Heh. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 22 07:35:13 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 21 13:43:37 2016. The reason I'm not for reactivating Court St is because it's only 2 blocks away from Borough Hall and maybe 3 blocks away from Jay St. It would be totally redundant. The only possible way it could become more practical is if there was a free transfer to Borough Hall/ |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Merrick1 on Sun May 22 07:50:59 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 06:28:27 2016. Aren't you too close to Albany to be in the "real" upstate? When I lived in Albany people from Rochester and Buffalo would tell me that Albany wasn't really upstate. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun May 22 14:11:21 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 22 07:35:13 2016. There are plenty of stations that fit that criterion.But,the Purpose of Court st was to connect it to a East River tunnel. The Second Avenue Subway would have been a perfect fit,along with a connection to the 8th avenue local. Remember...the Fulton st route was initially to be twice as long,with branches touching the Nassau border. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 22 14:39:53 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 22 07:35:13 2016. At least it's being used for the Transit Museum. I can't see any possible use for the South 4th Street station shell, unless someone has a plan for it. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun May 22 17:39:39 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Edwards! on Sun May 22 14:11:21 2016. about a mile away from the Nassau border. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 22 17:43:47 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Merrick1 on Sun May 22 07:50:59 2016. West of there by quite a few miles. Around here, we consider those folks as part of Ohio. :) |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 22 20:15:17 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Edwards! on Sun May 22 14:11:21 2016. Sure there are existing stations that currently fit that criteria, but that doesn't mean it's worth opening another one. By skipping Court St, it helps skirt depth issues with a new East River tunnel. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 22 20:16:40 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 22 14:39:53 2016. True, not without a major line going through the shell. |
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Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 22 20:19:24 2016, in response to Re: Schermerhorn Street Tunnel Question, posted by Merrick1 on Sun May 22 07:50:59 2016. Are we gonna have the "what's considered upstate?" discussion again? :-) |
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