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When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 25 17:38:46 2015 Repairs |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 25 19:34:57 2015, in response to When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 25 17:38:46 2015. Finally, someone advocating building a new tunnel for only one track. I've been saying this for years. You only need 2 tracks during rush hours anyway, and it would cut costs in half. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Jul 25 19:45:39 2015, in response to When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 25 17:38:46 2015. Building one tunnel now and another later is certainly an idea. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 25 19:57:42 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 25 19:34:57 2015. wrong again. we need 4. As to the costs, we all know the money is there; it is just being wasted on crap we don't need. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jul 25 21:00:50 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 25 19:57:42 2015. wrong again. we need 4. As to the costs, we all know the money is there; it is just being wasted on crap we don't need.Any way you slice it, any new tunnel(s) should be directly adjacent to the 2 existing tunnels. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:12:07 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 25 19:34:57 2015. Half the capacity for three quarters the cost! But I guess somehow delivering far less value for money is just what we should expect from fiscal conservatives.Never mind Chrisco demonstrated NJ had more than enough money to finance our portion of ARC, he simply decided that money would be better spent on the Pulaski Skyway. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:14:53 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by 3-9 on Sat Jul 25 19:45:39 2015. Awesome, and when we finally get two tunnels built, sometime around the 2040s, and for a cost of somewhere around $40 billion we'll look back on Chrisco's blunder and no doubt share a hearty laugh at how quaint his notion of cost overruns was.If you're gonna dig tunnels, do both of them and don't bother with idiotic half measures. There isn't going to be additional capacity to Sunnyside, so any trains NJT adds under the Hudson will have to go back to NJ. A single track tunnel will not cut it under any circumstances and to suggest otherwise is simply idiocy of the highest order. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 26 01:18:58 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:12:07 2015. No problem! It'll get them to the ferry once the tunnels fail. What's another hour or so on that commute? :-\ |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:27:02 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 26 01:18:58 2015. The local train hating crew around here told us that all we had to do was get rid of ARC and we'd have plenty of money to build train lines to Freehold, Phillipsburg, Scranton, and West Trenton. ARC is dead, so where did the money for all those extensions they promised us would materialize disappear to? Oh right, a highway project. Yet they claim Republicans don't hate trains. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 26 01:34:50 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:27:02 2015. Of COURSE not! Buses are merely trains on rubber tires. :) |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jul 26 02:13:50 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jul 25 21:00:50 2015. Absolutely:Lets worry about one tunnel first as obviously that is needed, then worry about the second. That for now may be the only way to do it. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 02:42:15 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jul 26 02:13:50 2015. No! The cost of building one tunnel is not half the cost of building two tunnels. You'd be lucky to get one tunnel built for the 75% the cost of two tunnels, and it's quite likely the savings would be minimal. Building two tunnels at two different tunnels merely means you're likely going to end up spending 150% as much to get something far later than you otherwise would. And how is a single tunnel supposed to work operationally? Where are those trains going to go once they get to NYP?If you want to save money you'd be better off looking at using a single, larger diameter TBM to bore both tracks at the same time. The cost to operate a TBM is pretty constant up to a given diameter (Bertha in Seattle being clearly beyond the departure point). |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 26 03:02:36 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 02:42:15 2015. Wasn't that the original plan until they came ashore? |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:54:03 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 25 19:57:42 2015. Spoken like a true democrat.Money Grows on Trees... Run the Presses... Follow Greece! The money *could* be there, but at the moment it is not, and with Republicans taking over everything in 2016 nothing is going to happen until the other messes are cleaned up. Such transportation is a regional issue and should be dealt with regionally. GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO IT, and then apply for Federal Help, and you will stand a much better chance of getting it. Waiting for Congress, no matter who owns the congress and the White House is not going to promote anything. NJ had the right idea, and then a Fat Governor stepped in it. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:56:24 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:12:07 2015. Well, the skyway is important too. But he sured did botch this thing, but this is now forgotten and all anybody speaks about is Bridgegate, and dhis kissing up to Obama after that storm.Him is Toast. Please pass the jam. ROAR |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:57:48 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by 3-9 on Sat Jul 25 19:45:39 2015. Go for the big bore.ROAR |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by chud1 on Sun Jul 26 09:12:07 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:54:03 2015. IAWTP!chud1 :)..... |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 26 10:15:19 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 25 19:57:42 2015. Need? No. Desire? Maybe. Remember, NYP has limited capacity and can't handle any more than what 2 tracks could ram into the station. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Jul 26 11:16:50 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:14:53 2015. We know that the existing tunnels will have to close, one at a time, for repairs. If a third tunnel can be built before that happens, then two-way service can be maintained throughout, and disruption will be greatly minimized. So it pretty much has to be done.In fact, they are currently building a portal for a third tunnel on the New York side, are they not? There was a picture here recently showing just that. The point was that building the portal now, before the area between Penn Station and the tunnels is completely covered with buildings, would prevent a lot of difficulty later. It looked from the picture that the new tunnel would be at a lower level than the existing ones, at least at the NY end. Maybe it will have to go under the Empire Connection tunnel. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 26 11:21:36 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 01:12:07 2015. Two tubes during rush hours is better than one. Building a new station with capacity to handle any more is not an option. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 11:47:12 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 26 11:21:36 2015. Why?Building more station capacity is not rocket science. The need is there now, and will get greater as the years fall off of the calendar. You can push it off onto your children or grandchildren (such as the Federal budget is doing now--unless Obama plans to Greece it), or you can bite the bullet and get it done. Costs Money, Aye, There is the rub. LION has plans, but him knows knot what to do about so many things, it is a good thing does not be a politician. Not that him would even be allowed to run for political office. But... Yes more capacity either at NYP or better yet at a new WTC Station for NJT/LIRR would make the most cents. Him build four tracks under each river, to for NJT and two for LIRR. LIRR yards in NJ, NJT yards at Sunnyside. With extensions to both LGA and NWK what is not to like about it besides the price tag. Democrats want handouts, to tax the rich and give to the poor. So be it, that is who they are and nothing is going to change their greed. Republicans want to cut services and keep their hard earned mone. So be it, that is who they are and nothing is going to change their greed. But LION is a CONSERVATIVE, and while him wants to keep all of the good stuff in his house, the house of him includes ALL of the outdoors, all around the world, and all of the (tasty) people in it. They are all the children of the LION, and him wants what is best for each of them. From each according to their ability, to each according to their.... HEY WAIT, that is NOT conservative, that is Communist, and we proffed that that dows not work. Your problem, not mine. LION lives in a nice clean zoo with a good zookeeper, what is him to want or do. Sit by the window and make faces at the kids that pass by. That is what (captive) LIONS do! ROAR |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 26 13:01:47 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Jul 26 11:16:50 2015. I agree. We need one tunnel just so we can do the necessary maintenance without cutting back existing traffic.As for the tunnel portals, yes, they're being built in the West Side yards. I believe they are building both of them in anticipation of Gateway. Don't know how much it'll help though - when/if they start digging the tunnel, they have to cart all that crap out anyway, and still turn the area into a construction site. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 26 13:20:14 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 26 10:15:19 2015. Please explain how having half the potential throughput under the Hudson is advantageous.Even just for maintenance we need four. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 26 13:41:03 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:56:24 2015. Don't forget his reneging on his promises to the unions. I'm sure that went over real well. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 26 14:02:30 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:56:24 2015. He was kissing B. O.'s feet, all right. If not his butt. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jul 26 14:07:02 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 26 13:41:03 2015. The Pulaski Skyway job is another potential firestorm, much of the work is Port Authority funded, there are serious legal questions as to whether they have the right to spend money on that project that are not yet done in the courts. But the history of the Port Authority has ben to finance pet projects and even some worthwhile ventures that the governors of NY and NJ wanted, that they would never get funded by their respective states in the legit fashion. A good bit of what they have done is only very loosely tied to their actual mission. Just enough to keep people out of jail. As to the tunnel, we should not ignore the possible use of pre built and floated into place sections, they were successfully used for rail on the 63rd street tunnel job 4 tube/double deck, twin tube in Boston. You don't have a true portal built to the station approach, what you actually have is a box that preserves the right of way access under the Hudson Yards construction. I do not know the dimensions of the box, but it would be fun to imagine a higher clearance tube set that could additionally lead to the so called "Penn South" platforms to do a little future proofing. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jul 26 14:11:59 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 26 07:56:24 2015. The Skyway is important, but financing the job with Port Authority money is of very questionable legality. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 26 15:14:47 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jul 26 14:07:02 2015. I do not know the dimensions of the box, but it would be fun to imagine a higher clearance tube set that could additionally lead to the so called "Penn South" platforms to do a little future proofing.One cab only hope they thought that far ahead. I heard they're already spending $100 mil for it. |
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Posted by piyer on Sun Jul 26 15:29:44 2015, in response to When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 25 17:38:46 2015. The real question with all of this isn't so much 'what are they going to do?' but 'when are they going to do it?'. Will a new tunnel, or pair of tunnels, be operational before Amtrak simply must close one or both of its tunnels for major repairs?I'm a pessimist. I think they'll need to make repairs long before a third (and fourth) tunnel is ready for service. And then there will be endless committee hearings as politicians play their favorite game: The Blame Game. :-/ |
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Re: When the Tunnel(s) close |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jul 26 15:41:34 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnel(s) close, posted by piyer on Sun Jul 26 15:29:44 2015. If I had a dollar for every time I picked up the phone and yelled at someone to call back later I'm too busy fixing problems to waste my time fixing blame! It happens in private industry just as often. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 01:28:34 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 26 11:21:36 2015. Building a new station with capacity to handle any more is not an option.Except that it is. Adding to PSNY's platforms is an integral part of Amtrak's Gateway project. The current plans show them extending to the south, but there are a number of options under consideration. And in any event NJT could utilize the stub ended platforms on the south end of the station in a much more efficient manner to take advantage of the capacity provided by two additional tunnels under the Hudson. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jul 27 01:33:47 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 01:28:34 2015. Why is Penn South such an integral part? It's for NJT, why don't they make NJT pick up all or part of the tab, since NJ torpedoed ARC? |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 01:40:49 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Jul 26 11:16:50 2015. If a third tunnel can be built before that happens, then two-way service can be maintained throughout, and disruption will be greatly minimized. So it pretty much has to be done.And they can build a fourth tunnel right along with the third tunnel. Better yet, they can build the third tunnel as a double track structure and get both for a slight increase in bored diameter. It may even be possible to squeeze four tracks under the Hudson and integrate the 7 Train extension to Secaucus into the project. In fact, they are currently building a portal for a third tunnel on the New York side, are they not? They are. Thankfully it's double tracked, and diverges to the south of the Empire Connection tunnel. I'd imagine if it's diving a bit it's so it'll clear the 7 train tunnel, which the MTA drove through almost exactly at the depth a trans-Hudson tunnel would ideally be at. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 27 01:45:55 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by 3-9 on Mon Jul 27 01:33:47 2015. Well they should! New Jersey collects the tax money from those who commute into NYC, they might as well chip in something. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 27 01:46:54 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 26 02:42:15 2015. A single, larger tunnel if possible would be the best way to do it. If that can be done, then that is definitely the way to do it. |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 02:02:57 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 26 10:15:19 2015. It most certainly can accommodate more trains. Neither NJT nor Amtrak utilize their space at NYP to the same degree other terminals around the world are utilized. There is plenty of room for improvement in track utilization. But with the Hudson tunnels being such an effective bottleneck there is no impetus to significantly streamline operations on the platforms at NYP. Open up the bottleneck under the Hudson and there will be a reason to run NYP in a more efficient manner.It's worth remembering that Alexander Cassatt, the president of the PRR who spearheaded the construction of Penn Station, fully expected the railroad would construct two additional North River tubes in a matter of years of the station's opening. Penn station's platforms were designed with four Hudson tunnels in mind from the beginning. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 02:13:18 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by 3-9 on Mon Jul 27 01:33:47 2015. I actually don't think it's an integral part, Amtrak seems to. It'd be nice to see them separate the Hudson tunnels from an expansion of Penn Station's platforms. There's a lot of room for improvement in their utilization of platform space at Penn Station and at least some of the capacity of two new Hudson tunnels could be taken up without ever expanding Penn Station itself.It's for NJT, why don't they make NJT pick up all or part of the tab, since NJ torpedoed ARC? Probably because just like ARC, the project exists almost solely for the economic benefit of the region as a whole instead of just NJ and it's unacceptable that NJ be left holding the bag for a project which NYC desperately needs? But really Amtrak insists on labelling PSNY-South as the "High Speed Rail" tracks at Penn Station. I don't know how they might differ from the other tracks, or what might preclude the operation of commuter trains into those tracks. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 02:38:40 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 27 01:46:54 2015. That may not necessarily be the case. It may not be cheaper to build a larger diameter tunnel to accommodate two tracks. But building two tracks at the same time, regardless of whether they're in two independent tunnels, or are bundled in a single tube, will likely be cheaper than building two single track tunnels at different times. The duplication of construction overhead costs is something that should be avoided at all costs.The Grone Hart tunnel on the HSL-Zuid between Schipol Intl and Antwerp in the Netherlands was designed for two tracks in a single bored tunnel and utilized a 14.8 meter diameter TBM. Brisbane was working on a double deck tunnel which accommodates two tracks on a lower level and two busway lanes on an upper level of a 14.8 meter diameter tunnel. Given the larger dynamic envelope of a bus it seems likely a subway train could be accommodated in that space. Sadly that tunnel project was cancelled this year. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jul 27 04:25:35 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 02:13:18 2015. Probably because just like ARC, the project exists almost solely for the economic benefit of the region as a whole instead of just NJ and it's unacceptable that NJ be left holding the bag for a project which NYC desperately needs?But with ARC, NJ had to chip in, as well as the PANYNJ. NY didn't have to contribute directly. I get the impression NJ needs it more than NY. |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Jul 27 08:14:58 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 01:28:34 2015. Except that it is. Adding to PSNY's platforms is an integral part of Amtrak's Gateway project.PWN3D!!!!! |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jul 27 08:17:43 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 02:38:40 2015. Tunneling not being an area of experience or expertise of mine, let me pose another question. Wouldn't the use of a conventional TBM presuppose rock tunneling, or can they also be used in silt and clay layers? We have debated diameter and single versus dual bore, and I threw out the notion of precast float into place, but I'm wondering if the geology and geography might restrict or obviate the use of a particular methodology. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 27 10:29:14 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 02:13:18 2015. "But really Amtrak insists on labelling PSNY-South as the "High Speed Rail" tracks at Penn Station. I don't know how they might differ from the other tracks, or what might preclude the operation of commuter trains into those tracks."Apparently you have no clue as to what High Speed Rail tracks are all about. (Neither do I for that matter). Think Linear Induction motors. Think high speed switches, perhaps a wider gauge (dual gauge in the station.) There are many possibilities that go into this. Perhaps most important is the way passengers are handled in the station itself. If you want me to design an HSR station for Manhattan, I'd start on 60th Street with a whole new station. Say four deep tracks. perhaps only one tunnel to New Jersery, with a single stop, perhaps at Hoboken, and then next stop(s) maybe 150 or more miles out. But what does a LION know. It is mostly polyticks, and who is greasing whom. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 27 10:30:56 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 27 01:40:49 2015. Get that amned 7 train out of your head. It is NOT going to New Jersery!ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 27 10:37:28 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jul 27 08:17:43 2015. I thought about yor pre-cast float, so your crumbs did not fall on deff years. I wonder if that will work under the Hudson, there is far more great ship traffic there than in the East River. The flow of water in the Hudson is enormous. The Hudson Canyon is much larger than the Grand Canyon, and the flow is huge. Goggle "Hudson Canyon" for more information on that project. That sucker is still digging its gorge even 100 miles out at sea!ROAR |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jul 27 11:13:12 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 27 10:37:28 2015. How could anyone not know the Hudson Canyon story? It was featured in the "Beast From 20000 Fathoms" The point many fail to take into account is that both the Hudson and the East River are not true rivers down by the city, they are tidal strait or extension/estuary. Their flows are bi-directional, 4 knots not atypical, depending on tides and in the case of the Hudson there is also a major influence of spring snow melt upstate. The DEP sludge boats go up and down the East River they are over 300 foot, and the tug and barge traffic is heavier than one might imagine, I guess it is the route to CT and New England. Because the East is split by Roosevelt Island, even the volume is not near the Hudson, the current forces are surprisingly high. They learned that lesson when they sank the first microhydro turbine in the West Channel and it broke free. The canyon depths are way offshore, around the city, we still have to do work to maintain channel depths. |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Jul 27 13:17:34 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jul 27 11:13:12 2015. How could anyone not know the Hudson Canyon story? It was featured in the "Beast From 20000 Fathoms"Pragmatist: Its nice to hear from a fellow film - buff. The "Beast" was Godzilla's cinematic godfather. The scene where he climbs out of the East River on an East River Pier features several railroad cars on a car float. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 27 13:28:20 2015, in response to When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 25 17:38:46 2015. Oh, the scare tactics. |
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Re: When the Tunnel(s) close |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 27 13:28:54 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 25 19:34:57 2015. Cut costs in half, the way that pols always inflate costs? Ya sure. |
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Re: When the Tunnels(s) close |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jul 27 14:01:12 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnels(s) close, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Jul 27 13:17:34 2015. short story- for a number of years I coached ice hockey in Coney Island at Abe Stark and we tied a game against a team that by all rights should have run over us. They had many more top players, but that night we got the job done. Their coach lives in Brighton Beach, and his nickname was and is "The Lizard" Someone asked me if I had tape of the game, and I said "No, but I've got pictures of xxxx walking home after the game!" Bet you remember which scene I'm referring to. |
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Re: When the Tunnel(s) close |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Mon Jul 27 14:42:41 2015, in response to Re: When the Tunnel(s) close, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 27 13:28:20 2015. Those all seem like reasonable outcomes of a closed tube. How do you see it playing out differently? |
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