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| Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch (1357708) | |
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| (1357708) | |
Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 12:04:22 2015 The City Hall Branch of the 3rd Avenue El opened on March 17, 1879. It was closed ten days later on March 27. It did not re-open again until March 1, 1880.Some reports state that the original operation was a cable hauled system which very quickly proved unworkable and this lead to the closure of the line. Unfortunately there seems to be a paucity of information about this service. Does anyone have more details. Any assistance will be appreciated. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1357712) | |
Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 12:23:10 2015, in response to Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 12:04:22 2015. This is the first I've ever heard of this. I'll see what I can find but it makes no sense that a branch integrated into a steam-powered main line should be cable-powered. To what end?What are "some reports"? Any source would be helpful. |
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| (1357714) | |
Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 12:50:18 2015, in response to Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 12:04:22 2015. The City Hall Branch and the first part of the 2nd Avenue el opened on the same day, March 1, 1880. To avoid having the roads cross in front of each other the 2nd Avenue Line was routed to South Ferry and the 3rd to City Hall. A walkway transfer was established between the two at Chatham Square, no Metrocard needed. |
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| (1357719) | |
More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 13:10:34 2015, in response to Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch, posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 12:50:18 2015. I can find no reference whatever to cable operation of the City Hall line. However, there was a major argument over the wisdom of allowing City Hall and South Ferry trains to cross over in front of each other at the junction. It would seem the City Hall Branch closed in order to agree on how to resolve the conflict.The solution came about when the 2nd opened on March 1, 1880. As I previously mentioned, the 2nd train went to South Ferry, formerly the 3rd's route, and the 3rd went to City Hall. |
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| (1357722) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 28 13:28:25 2015, in response to More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 13:10:34 2015. I have never heard of cable on the City Hall spur. Always thought that the spur had first opened as a steam powered shuttle between City Hall station and the old Chatham Square station. I'll look into it. |
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| (1357733) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 14:50:21 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 28 13:28:25 2015. Elkeeper: The only reference that I have immediately to hand is "The Manhattan Els and the IRT" by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard O. Dehart.On page 7 they reference the cable trials made in 1879. These were clearly unsuccessful which led to the line being shut down tens days after it opened. I had heard of this cable operation many years ago but did not know any details. Once wonders why the 3rd Avenue El would even try such a system after the 9th Avenue El unfortunate experience with it. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1357738) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Allan on Sun Jun 28 15:10:12 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 14:50:21 2015. "Once wonders why the 3rd Avenue El would even try such a system after the 9th Avenue El unfortunate experience with it."Maybe the builders thought they had a better version of the cable system. |
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| (1357742) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 15:14:31 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Allan on Sun Jun 28 15:10:12 2015. That still doesn't explain why they would try a cable system on a non-isolated branch of steam roads. |
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| (1357744) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 28 15:28:42 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 14:50:21 2015. You got to Cunningham/Dehart before I did. I still can't find any more info about City Hall spur cable operation. Even tried the old car rosters to see if any had been modified for cable operation- nothing.Hey, Larry, did you notice that, three paragraphs up on page 7, they mentioned the 110th St structure as being 100 feet high? Not that i wish to resurrect that thread again! LOL! |
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| (1357745) | |
Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 28 15:38:25 2015, in response to Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch, posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 12:50:18 2015. The original City Hall station opened on March 17th, 1879, almost a full year before the 2nd Ave el opened. It closed on March 27th and apparently remained closed until the 2nd Ave el opened. |
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| (1357815) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 22:14:58 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 14:50:21 2015. I think C&D are simply mistaken on this one, especially if they show no source. There was the cable line of The Third Avenue Railway on Park Row. Maybe this is what they were thinking of. As Elkeeper noted, they also repeated that 110th Street was 100 feet high. |
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| (1357824) | |
Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 28 23:53:39 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 28 22:14:58 2015. Please, no more elephants!!! |
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| (1357847) | |
You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 09:57:48 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 28 23:53:39 2015. The REAL reason the City Hall Branch was suspended. The elephant escaped from P.T. Barnum & Son, whose building you can see at the left.Never doubt me. Never. 
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| (1357849) | |
Re: You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jun 29 10:12:46 2015, in response to You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 09:57:48 2015. Was that a trunk line? |
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| (1357854) | |
Re: You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 10:18:02 2015, in response to Re: You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jun 29 10:12:46 2015. LOL! |
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| (1357862) | |
PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 11:44:52 2015, in response to Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 12:04:22 2015.
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| (1357873) | |
Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 29 13:23:11 2015, in response to PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 11:44:52 2015. Don't trip over the cable, Jumbo! |
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| (1357875) | |
Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 29 13:35:45 2015, in response to PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 11:44:52 2015. This looks shopped. |
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| (1357880) | |
Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 29 13:54:23 2015, in response to Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 29 13:35:45 2015. It's not shopped, Chris. They tried elephants after cable failed and before steam. |
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| (1357883) | |
Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Jun 29 13:58:11 2015, in response to Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 29 13:54:23 2015. It's not shopped, Chris. They tried elephants after cable failed and before steam.Isn't that the elephant that ended up in Margate? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1357913) | |
Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 16:29:59 2015, in response to Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 29 13:54:23 2015. The reason they tried elephants was because so many horses were killed or disabled during the Great Epizootic of 1872 that thought they might need an animal presumed immune to equine flu. |
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| (1357952) | |
Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 29 21:00:41 2015, in response to Re: PROFF (Re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Jun 29 13:58:11 2015. It could be Lucy. "Lucy, I'm home!" |
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Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by GIS Man on Tue Jun 30 09:24:37 2015, in response to Re: More (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 28 14:50:21 2015. Did Alfred Ely Beach really think that a pneumatic system could be used to run multiple trains on one track over the entire length of Manhattan island? They would have had to individually stop and start , and how would he have been able to control multiple trains with one fan?Bob |
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| (1357995) | |
Re: You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch) |
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Posted by GIS Man on Tue Jun 30 09:25:45 2015, in response to Re: You're Too Cynical (re: Cable Operation on the 3rd Avenue El City Hall Branch), posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jun 29 10:12:46 2015. Oy!Bob |
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| (1357997) | |
Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 30 10:12:00 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by GIS Man on Tue Jun 30 09:24:37 2015. How did Beach Pneumatic come into this discussion? What did I miss? |
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| (1358011) | |
Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by GIS Man on Tue Jun 30 12:02:11 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 30 10:12:00 2015. It's another instance of "Why would they even try?".Bob |
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| (1358020) | |
Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 30 12:50:57 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by GIS Man on Tue Jun 30 12:02:11 2015. What were the choices in Beach's time? Cable or steam. He was thinking "outside the box." Or maybe I should say "inside the tube." |
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| (1358027) | |
Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 30 13:40:40 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by GIS Man on Tue Jun 30 09:24:37 2015. Perhaps, he had other ideas in mind- like using a compressed air locomotive like the manhattan elevated railway's #400. |
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| (1358034) | |
Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Jun 30 14:04:00 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 30 12:50:57 2015. GIS Man, your questions might bring out one of the fallacies that cause people to get into arguments. When a person applies a partial knowledge of the plusses & minuses of a project his convictions of whether it work or not will be different that than the convictions of someone who knows 20-50% more plusses and minuses about it. He will be convinced a faulty project will work when all that is at stake is that he doesn't comprehend a few critical minuses. On the other hand some projects that he drops may actually work when greater knowledge is applied to solve them. The problem with the junior "expert" is that not only does his small slate of plusses and minuses look simple, he's convinced the subject is simple, that his slate is all that has to be looked at and so denies the senior person's knowledge creating an argument.He likely doesn't even comprehend the senior person's knowledge, especially if he has say a 40% knowledge and so thinks he knows quite a bit. People who feel they've gotten past 50% knowledge of a subject begin to realize that they only know 25% of what there is to know about it but that their position is still way ahead of the mob. Then they start to be a little more careful about thinking they know all that is needed about the subject. They realize that you not only have to prove that an idea works but also that the counter ideas don't. Anyway enough philosophy and back to Mr. Beach. His case may have been that of a promoter. He may have been naively thinking that if the simple demonstration works then surely the engineers can work out the details of scaling it up. You've pointed out that it might have not been so. Bill |
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Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 30 15:09:58 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by Bill West on Tue Jun 30 14:04:00 2015. I imagine that among the pluses envisioned by Beach (in the context of the time) was that it took up no space on or over streets, it produced no exhaust of steam or combustion products in the tunnel, and didn't need the mechanical complexity of a cable system.Why we need to be suspicious of gadgetbahnen -- inventions that pride themselves on what they DON'T do rather than what they DO better. |
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Re: Why would they even try... |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Jun 30 15:47:27 2015, in response to Re: Why would they even try..., posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 30 15:09:58 2015. Good point. You remind me of the blank sheet of paper fallacy. I used to go into a problem solving meeting with a written proposition, the others would point out unattractive aspects of it and reject it. After some debate I would realize how little they had thought about the problem and press for their solution. What would come out is that all they figuratively had was a blank piece of paper. There were at least no negatives to it but it was no solution either. Then I could press that warts or not, mine was a least objectionable avenue available to us.Bill |
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