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Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:14:01 2015 From the National Association of Railroad Passengers (NARP).NARP message |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:23:08 2015, in response to Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:14:01 2015. Why am I not surprised that it was this schmuck McClintock who added the amendment? I'v been following California politics for years, having lived there until 2010, and McClintock has been rabidly anti-Amtrak since he was a state legislator. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:09:02 2015, in response to Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:14:01 2015. If Rep. McClintock’s amendment becomes law, it will mean the end of trains in America. No more long-distance trains, no more state services, no more Northeast Corridor.I'm not a fan of this, but is there any way it could work to good? I mean the Northeast Corridor wouldn't just sit there unused, and someone has to own it. Metro North, NJT, Septa, and MARC can just extend their services can't they? They already cross state lines. Would they be able to establish partnerships to minimize passenger transfers? I admit to being ignorant of the political processes involved though. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:37:07 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:09:02 2015. As an example, a regional non-stop Yonkers to Penn Station train that ran regularly and didn't have Amtrak ticket prices on it could be very useful and could conceivably bring more vitality to the city of Yonkers. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 4 11:01:22 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:09:02 2015. Good enough.... Now we can get them out of NYP!ROAR (PS.... Please that this opportunity to fine tune your sarcasm detector) |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 4 11:07:35 2015, in response to Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:14:01 2015. Never happen. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 4 11:10:30 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:09:02 2015. This amendment is no doubt very bad, but I don't see anything in the article that implies the NE Corridor is at risk. It doesn't need any subsidy. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by chuchubob on Wed Mar 4 11:57:59 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 4 11:10:30 2015. The NEC doesn't need an operating subsidy. It needs an infrastructure subsidy. Operating profits won't cover MOW or the purchase of the remaining Sprinters or replacement of the Amfleets when they finally fall apart. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Mar 4 12:12:11 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 4 11:07:35 2015. IAWTP. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 4 12:26:34 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:23:08 2015. IAWTP |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Mar 4 13:47:28 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:09:02 2015. Metro North, NJT, Septa, and MARC can just extend their services can't they?What makes you think that those agencies are interested in running those services or paying for the capital costs needed to maintain a full fledged 125 mph Regional service? |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by chud1 on Wed Mar 4 14:27:49 2015, in response to Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:14:01 2015. signed.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Mar 4 15:08:40 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:09:02 2015. Since Amtrak makes money on the Northeast Corridor, it would presumably continue to exist as that line's operator, while shutting down all its other operations. Of course, this draconian proposal will not pass; isn't something like it proposed every year? |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Thu Mar 5 09:04:02 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Mar 4 15:08:40 2015. Define "makes money on the Northeast Corridor." It may make money on a direct cost basis (revenue and operating costs of individual) but not on fully allocated basis (indirect costs e.g. overhead). Long distance trains subsidize the northeast corridor because they absorb part of the overhead (administration salaries, reservation system, MOW, etc.) |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 5 09:17:49 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Thu Mar 5 09:04:02 2015. Cut off the NEC's annual, capital infusions, the wires fall, the signals and switches have trouble, and the trains stop. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Thu Mar 5 10:47:40 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 5 09:17:49 2015. Don't forget that the Hudson River Tunnels have to be replaced. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 18:19:54 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Thu Mar 5 09:04:02 2015. Long distance trains subsidize the northeast corridor because they absorb part of the overhead (administration salaries, reservation system, MOW, etc.)This flies in the face of logic. Both Acela and the NE Regional make a profit on their operations, and a substantial one at that. It is simply not possible for a like that is losing money on its operational costs to be subsidizing one that's significantly in the black. On top of that, the NEC hosts other Amtrak services, absorbing more OH costs, and then there are access fees from the commuter lines that use the line. LD routes most certainly do not subsidize the NEC. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 5 21:13:58 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 18:19:54 2015. No it kind of makes sense. When he means subsidize, it's in a very broad sense. Amtrak's administrative overhead, if split among the whole organization, would mean the NEC would only need to cover a portion of it. OTOH, if Amtrak consisted solely of the NEC, then the NEC's revenues would be responsible for covering all of it, though the overhead would be less because of the smaller organization. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by kp5308 on Thu Mar 5 21:18:57 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 18:19:54 2015. LD routes most certainly do not subsidize the NECAccording to Fred Fraily of Trains magazine any long distance train that uses the NEC is charged TRIPLE the rate of a Regional service charge even though the fixed costs are the same for both while on the Corridor. The real problem is the Amtrak accounting system is so vague that it would trigger an IRS audit & land several executives in jail if it were tried in the true private sector. No one knows what it really costs to run the system & if anyone tells you any different they are an outright liar. Period. If we could just face the fact that the whole friggin' thing will need a subsidy to continue to operate & move on from there we would be a lot better off. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 5 21:38:43 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by kp5308 on Thu Mar 5 21:18:57 2015. "If we could just face the fact that the whole friggin' thing will need a subsidy to continue to operate & move on from there we would be a lot better off."Just like any other passenger rail system on the planet...unless theres' a rail system out there that is operated and sustained strictly out of the farebox that I don't know about! |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 22:16:53 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 5 21:13:58 2015. I understood what he meant. Since Operating revenues from the NEC are already being used to offset costs everywhere, then having these additional lines only serves to create additional overhead costs that require more money. I'm not against LD trains, just that everyone should realize that LD trains are the biggest money losers out there. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 22:29:27 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 5 21:38:43 2015. ...unless theres' a rail system out there that is operated and sustained strictly out of the farebox that I don't know about!MTR seems to be able to cover their rail operations with their rail revenues (capital costs are another story). Then there are the various JR companies. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Mar 6 05:36:36 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 5 21:38:43 2015. Just like any other passenger rail system on the planet...At the very least, just like every other mode of transportation in this country. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 6 06:47:11 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 5 21:38:43 2015. The NEC does operate out of the "farebox". How could they not with those fares ?But when you get in GAAP Accounting, they cannot cover anywhere near all overhead and capital expenses. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 6 07:47:30 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Mar 4 10:37:07 2015. GREAT idea. (re)Electrify the West Side Line, add stops at 72ns and 125th...Ain't likely to happen, but still a good plan. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Mar 6 09:49:13 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Mar 4 15:08:40 2015. They don't make enough money to replace aging equipment or infrastructure tho.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Mar 6 09:50:40 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by kp5308 on Thu Mar 5 21:18:57 2015. If we could just face the fact that the whole friggin' thing will need a subsidy to continue to operate & move on from there we would be a lot better off.Bingo. Just like every other form of transportation in our country. your pal, Fred |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Mar 6 11:17:04 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 22:29:27 2015. Only JR East and JR Central make money. And to a lesser extent JR West. The other three are heavily subsidized. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 6 11:42:43 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 22:16:53 2015. I don't think anybody is disputing that, it's just that it provides a service with indirect benefits, kind of like the NYC subway. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 6 12:06:48 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Mar 6 11:17:04 2015. Only JR East and JR Central make moneyDon't those KKs have a few non-rail subsidiaries? e.g. Nippon Restaurant and a few JR Bus lines? |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 6 12:23:29 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by j trainloco on Thu Mar 5 18:19:54 2015. This flies in the face of logic. Both Acela and the NE Regional make a profit on their operations, and a substantial one at that. It is simply not possible for a like that is losing money on its operational costs to be subsidizing one that's significantly in the black. On top of that, the NEC hosts other Amtrak services, absorbing more OH costs, and then there are access fees from the commuter lines that use the line. LD routes most certainly do not subsidize the NECPWN3D!!!! Nostalgia doesn't know anything and no one particularly likes him. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 13:52:28 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 6 12:23:29 2015. Here are the facts from an Amtrak document.http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/133/704/FY15-Budget-Business-Plan-FY16-Budget-Justification-FY-15-19-Five-Year-Financial-Plan.pdf Look at page 43 Direct Expenses Allocated to Business Lines: Long Distance Business Line ($106) [million] [I can't cut an paste because it won't format] Read the report for yourselves. BTW, projected FY 2015 NEC adjusted operating profit is $382M. It would be higher without the above cost allocation to long distance. Terrapin Station has a small brain, a BIG mouth, and attention deficit disorder. I'm not angry at him. I pity him. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 14:02:44 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 13:52:28 2015. I made a mistake in the above post. The adjusted operating profit would be LOWER without the $106M allocation to the Long Distance Business Line.No mistake about Terrapin Station. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 6 14:06:42 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 13:52:28 2015. No idea what you're talking about. If you think j trainloco is wrong, then tell him, not me. I agreed with him. I didn't disagree with you. I think you're afraid to reply to him directly because you know he's pwn3d you once and he'll do it again and again and again. Because you don't know anything and no one particularly likes you. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 6 14:13:12 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 13:52:28 2015. And Amtrak's internal accounting has a less than stellar reputation. Claiming a profit and concurrently seeking billions for maintenance of the NEC doesn't meet the smell test. One need only look back to a point where Al Perlman ordered the accountants to bill all track maintenance on large segments of the Water Level Route to the passenger dept in order to make the deficits look higher in ICC train off proceedings. Of course, this century we call this Enron accounting. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 14:36:01 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 6 14:13:12 2015. I haven't read of any Amtrak accountants being indicted for preparing false financial statements. No Amtrak executive has been sent to jail for false financial statements.You can't really compare financial accounting standards to the 1930s when there weren't any. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 14:38:36 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 6 14:06:42 2015. You posted his statement without attribution and made it look like your own. In addition to other flaws, I can add plagiarizing to the list. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 6 14:46:37 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 14:38:36 2015. You posted his statement without attributionNo I didn't. and made it look like your ownLOL, no I didn't. In addition to other flaws, I can add plagiarizing to the list.You can't be serious. IF you are then you fAiL @ the interNETs even more than I previously thought. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 15:15:59 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Mar 6 11:17:04 2015. Are JR East and West passenger operations? |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 6 16:47:57 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 14:36:01 2015. the NYC comparison was from the 1960s, and in that era RRs had outside auditors certify their financial statements but the passenger/freight allocation of costs was not illegal from a financial reporting POV, it was a question of what the ICC was willing to accept as costs leading to losses on passenger trains. From a stockholder POV, if the allocation aided the RR in shedding pax services, the bottom line should have improved so no foul. OTOH from the pov of a citizen/passenger train rider the issue is very different. On several Amtrak focused lists/groups the accusation of NEC financial fudges has been around for a while. No one seems to be able to tease out the details from financial statements as published. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Mar 6 16:51:25 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 15:15:59 2015. Yes, freight is run by JR Freight. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Mar 6 17:14:22 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 6 12:06:48 2015. NRE got divided into four companies(East, Central, West and Shikoku). But food service on trains in general have been diminishing and diminishing. Some long distance trains, even sleepers don't offer anything at all.Each JR except Freight owns one or more bus companies. Not all of them make profit. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Gene B. on Fri Mar 6 18:34:25 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by milantram on Wed Mar 4 09:23:08 2015. I totally agree. This guy is on a different planet than the rest of us. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sat Mar 7 08:23:21 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by nostalgia on Fri Mar 6 13:52:28 2015. I understand the point you are making, but consider that without the LD lines, overhead costs would be lower (though not eliminated) and the profit you listed from the NEC is then used to pay off these charges. The LD lines are money losers, and that needs to be acknowledged and a funding source identified. |
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Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 8 10:49:40 2015, in response to Re: Late-filed Amendment Cuts All Amtrak Funding!, posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 6 14:46:37 2015. bump |
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