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| (1329290) | |
Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014 Denver's rail system is in huge expansion mode. Unlike most American cities, they have decided to name their lines after letters instead of colors. Apparently the short term plans are to offer 12 different lettered services. Pretty comprehensive, and a little interesting how this compares to NYC.Here are the letters as proposed: A: Union Station to Denver International Airport B: Union Station to Westminster (eventually Boulder and Longmont) C: Union Station to Littleton/Mineral (eventually C-470/Lucent) D: Downtown to Littleton/Mineral (eventually C-470/Lucent) E: Union Station to Lincoln (eventually Ridgegate Parkway) F: Downtown to Lincoln (eventually Ridgegate Parkway) G: Union Station to Wheat Ridge/Ward H: Downtown Denver to Nine Mile L: Downtown Denver to 38th/Blake N: Union Station to 124th/Eastlake (eventually 162nd/Hwy 7) R: Peoria to Lincoln (eventually Ridgegate Parkway) W: Union Station to Jefferson County Government Center/Golden B, C, D, E, F, H, and W are already operating. A, B, G, and R open in 2016. The N will open in 2018. The L is a short extension and conversion of existing light rail service to a low floor LRT car. There is also a BRT line (Flatiron Flyer) that will open in 2016 between Denver and Boulder. And there are the downtown circulators (MallRide on 16th and MetroRide on 18th/19th). I saw the parallels in the naming conventions between NYC and Denver, so I thought I'd share. It's pretty cool to see such a comprehensive network develop pretty much out of nowhere. Here is a link to a map: http://www.rtd-denver.com/FastracksMap.shtml |
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| (1329291) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:44:22 2014, in response to Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014. Something I left out is that the R is a rehash of the old G, which was a crosstown service from Lincoln to Nine Mile. Apparently, it was a poor performer, but they decided to reinstate crosstown service on the extended line.Funny that the crosstown was the G. |
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| (1329300) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Sun Dec 21 15:23:20 2014, in response to Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014. Thank you. Do you happen to know where those local track extensions up near Boulder will be routed? Will they follow Broadway or the Foothills up to Baseline or Arapahoe and terminate while the main tracks head up to Niwot and Longmont? I am a CU - Boulder alumnus and am curious is all. My junior and senior years I lived near Baseline and Broadway up toward Chataqua. |
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| (1329301) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 15:23:23 2014, in response to Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014. Fascinating, thanks for posting.Why did they go consecutively from A to H, then start skipping letters? |
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| (1329310) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 15:23:23 2014. A good question. And a remarkable coincidence that that is just what the NYC subway did (and still does, except for the H being dropped). Every letter being used by Denver is a letter that has also been used by NYC. And that airplane symbol on the right-hand side of the map looks awfully familiar, color and all. |
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| (1329311) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 15:48:24 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014. Hmm .. some transit planer in Denver a refugee from NYC? |
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| (1329312) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 15:50:32 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014. Actually, we basically go consecutively from A to S. I can understand skipping I, O and P. And T is reserved for the future SAS. |
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| (1329314) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 15:52:37 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 15:23:23 2014. Admittedly the idea behind the lettering is a little strange. From what I've read in RTD board information packets, the concepts are:A: Airport Line B: Boulder Line G: Gold Line L: Downtown "Loop" Line N: North Metro Line R: Aurora Line W: West Line The first light rail line operated without designation between 30th/Downing and I-25/Broadway from 1994 to 2002. In 2002 the branch to Union Station opened as well as the Littleton extension. The original line was named the "D", while the new Union Station-Littleton line was named the "C". The Southwest line and Nine Mile branch opened in 2006, which resulted in the "E" between Union Station and Lincoln, the "F" between Downtown and Lincoln, the "G" between Nine Mile and Lincoln (now discontinued, soon to be "R"), and the "H" from Downtown to Nine Mile. I'm really not sure why they decided to initially start with C&D. Perhaps they had already envisioned the Airport and Boulder lines? |
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| (1329318) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 16:11:34 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by cortelyounext on Sun Dec 21 15:23:20 2014. It seems that the "B" line will use an existing railroad corridor (with added overhead wires) and will stop in the vicinity of Pearl and 30th in Boulder. The tracks parallel Hwy 119, and it looks like a stop will be included near 63rd in Gunbarrel and near 1st/Main in Longmont.The dark blue line on the map is a BRT service called the Flatiron Flyer. It will use HOV lanes along I-25 and US 36. Bus stops are included on the right side of the freeway with pedestrian overpasses to the stops in the opposite direction. Buses that make those stops will use the main traffic lanes or the shoulder lane (that will be widened for bus use) when traffic is heavy. It seems that once the buses reach the south end of Boulder (at Table Mesa Transit Center), they will operate local service to the central part of the city. The exact service plan will be finished this year. I hope this is helpful to you, I'm not too familiar with Denver, I just came across this stuff on the web. |
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| (1329319) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Dec 21 16:22:24 2014, in response to Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014. Lines with color names tend to have problems when you start to run out of contrasting colors. OTOH you have 24 to 26 usable letters and infinite numbers, |
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| (1329321) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 21 16:25:12 2014, in response to Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014. What. no J? |
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| (1329323) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Sun Dec 21 16:29:47 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 16:11:34 2014. Thanks for all that. I thought those local extensions might be planned past Broadway and Arapaho all the way to Pearl Street because of the sheer amount of foot traffic up there. Large swaths of Pearl Street are essentially a pedestrian mall similar to 6th Street in downtown Denver. Boulder to the north of CU is big enough to warrant that extension. Niwot was a little crossroads back in the day and Longmont not much more although growing. It's different now. Even back then there was talk that Cheyenne right through Pueblo would eventually be connected. |
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| (1329324) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 21 16:30:58 2014, in response to Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 14:38:58 2014. How do you tell LRT from commuter rail ?I'd double letter one or the other. |
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| (1329325) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 16:45:44 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Tcmetro on Sun Dec 21 15:52:37 2014. Thanks for that background. |
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| (1329326) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 16:48:25 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 21 16:30:58 2014. What does it matter? |
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| (1329328) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 21 17:09:01 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 21 16:25:12 2014. I wanna take a "P"!!! |
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| (1329331) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 21 17:47:09 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 21 16:48:25 2014. If several serve Union Station, be nice to know where to wait around by structures rather than just signs, or looking for tracks in the street vs. a RR right of way. |
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| (1329338) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 21 18:22:36 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014. Blame Panam. |
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| (1329348) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Allan on Sun Dec 21 19:23:22 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014. Even though the MTA stopped using the H (for now), they can always resurrect it (like they did for the Rockaway line after Sandy).And since Denver has assigned a blue color to it, I wonder if the MTA isn't going to try to get them to change it before Denver starts to use it in 2016 (since it was used on copyrighted subway maps it can be probably be considered intellectual property). |
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| (1329350) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Allan on Sun Dec 21 19:53:54 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 21 17:09:01 2014. 3rd rail - I mean door, on the left. |
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| (1329377) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Dec 22 00:03:53 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Allan on Sun Dec 21 19:23:22 2014. San Francisco Muni uses letter in bullet system and I haven’t heard of the MTA attempting to sue them over it. |
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| (1329378) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 22 00:12:57 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by randyo on Mon Dec 22 00:03:53 2014. It would be hard for MTA to show a likelihood of confusion by the riders, that they mistakenly thought, while riding in SF, that they were actually on the NYC subway. |
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| (1329383) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 22 00:42:54 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by randyo on Mon Dec 22 00:03:53 2014. IINM, they did have some conversation, and the Market Street Railway Company (the 501c3 which has the small museum/gift shop on the F Market) stopped selling t shirts w/ the F shown in bullet even though it was white on black--clearly different from the MTA F. Also Muni went after individuals selling t shirts showing the N in a color bullet. |
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| (1329384) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 22 00:44:27 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 22 00:12:57 2014. nothing to do with any rational thoughts like that--totally lame "intellectual property" BS. |
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| (1329400) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by coneyisl on Mon Dec 22 09:57:49 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by cortelyounext on Sun Dec 21 16:29:47 2014. Much to my chagrin the NW rail project beyond Westminster terminal is Denver's version of the SAS. The line was originally slated to be completed to Longmont along with the other projects. Due to monumental cost underestimates (mostly as a result of increased fuel prices) there isn't any projected realistic build-out plan time frame. |
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| (1329402) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by localacrosstheplatform on Mon Dec 22 10:18:08 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014. I don't consider the "H" having been dropped -- it's still the internal name for the Rockaway Park shuttle, and so can't be used for any future train. (And probably SHOULD be externally for that shuttle. It's too long of a trip to just be a shuttle.)(I also personally think that the lettering of the entire A/H should be restructured for clarity, but that's a separate issue.) |
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| (1329422) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Dec 22 13:33:36 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by coneyisl on Mon Dec 22 09:57:49 2014. Due to monumental cost underestimates (mostly as a result of increased fuel prices) there isn't any projected realistic build-out plan time frame.Haven't the Saudis just fixed that? |
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| (1329425) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Dec 22 13:50:11 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by randyo on Mon Dec 22 00:03:53 2014. So when are they going to sue Unicode? |
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| (1329461) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by coneyisl on Mon Dec 22 17:46:23 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 21 17:47:09 2014. Interesting that you mention that. All light rail arrives at a station that is about a 1,000 ft. walk to the northwest of the heavy rail tracks. I wasn't to happy that they put it way over there because it increases the length of the walk to Coors Field by about 3-4 blocks (boo-hoo). The good news is that the bus station concourse runs beneath the heavy rail tracks from a point across the street from light rail to a point just 50 feet or so from the entrance to the train terminal. That comes in handy when the weather is bad. It also makes it convenient to transfer easily from buses to either service. They really did a remarkably nice job on the complex. That's the beauty of having room to build. |
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| (1329466) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by coneyisl on Mon Dec 22 18:00:27 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Dec 21 15:45:37 2014. The original G line was discontinued and was remarkably similar to the H train in New York in that it was the top end of a wye between Lone Tree and Nine Mile. It didn't have a cool name like Hammels, though. Ridership was abysmal because it never traveled through the central corridor. It will ride again 2016 as the R line when the extension from Nine Mile to Peoria is completed. There, it will terminate across the street from the East Rail line to DIA. |
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| (1329470) | |
Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT |
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Posted by coneyisl on Mon Dec 22 18:17:04 2014, in response to Re: Denver rail naming scheme getting a little like IND/BMT, posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Dec 22 13:33:36 2014. Good point. The contractors will probably do well on their bottom line, that is, unless the contracts are tiered based on commodity prices, which I'm guessing they're not. The Northwest corridor rail no-build-out decision was a point of an, at times, visceral disagreement between the cities to the northwest and RTD. The give-back was the BRT lanes between Denver and Boulder, the argument being that fixed guideway transportation was less efficient than buses. We'll find out soon. Completion of the Northwest rail line will be contingent on increased taxes or just waiting for existing bonds to be paid off (they're talking 2030s). It would be by far the most expensive corridor to build because the right of way is shared with BNSF and is pretty narrow in spots, necessitating some major bridge and embankment reconstruction. That being said, it is my contention that ridership between Boulder and Union Station would be outstanding. From what I understand, the research numbers owned this out pretty well, but RTD was able to work out a contract with a private contractor to build BRT quickly and operate it. They're going to make a mint on Express Lane tolls! |
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