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| IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding (1328623) | |
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| (1328623) | |
IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by CathedralPky on Wed Dec 17 01:17:39 2014 Hey all, a potentially dumb question about the 8th ave IND.There is a yard area between 81st and 72nd streets and you can get to it from either the local or express tracks. This segment, i can only assume but have not confirmed in a railfan car, is signaled at 15mph or so, therefore express trains must always slow down for it (and before it on the approach.) The reduced speed signaling ends at the southern junction where trains in the yard can return to the downtown express or local tracks. So... why is the slowdown required? Other major switch locations don't require such a slowdown (e.g. the flying junctions at W4, I don't recall much slowdown for an 8th ave train to transfer and arrive on the lower level.) I recall there was a derailment near this yard area about 2 years ago. Could it be simply because of that? |
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| (1328630) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Dec 17 01:56:27 2014, in response to IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by CathedralPky on Wed Dec 17 01:17:39 2014. Between 81st and 72nd streets on the IND line on Central Park West there is a single track between the local and express tracks on each level of the two-level passageway. I simply would not call both of these layup tracks a "train yard" - storage tracks yes, but not a train yard - maybe that's just me.Currently these storage tracks can be accessed from either the north or southern ends with switches to both the local and express tracks on each level. There is no connection between the track levels. I believe that sometimes the downtown level storage track has been used to hold a Rockaway Park bound A-train until its scheduled leaving time. In the previous message there was the contention that trains using this storage track had to slow down to a reported 15mph or so. I believe that there are many places within the subway system where there are switch tracks where the trains taking those switches have to slow down, or approach the switch at a lower speed as compared to a train's potential highest speed. There are many places within the subway system where there are posted speeds, and the train operators are expected to safely travel at or near those posted speeds, (or possibly under the posted speed given traffic or travel conditions). For some reason that does not seem unusual. Mike |
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| (1328648) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 17 08:23:56 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Michael549 on Wed Dec 17 01:56:27 2014. Frog x 2On the diverging route the speed is limited to the frog number x 2. Ergo a number 8 frog permits a train to transverse at 16 mph. That is the physics of the situation. We of course are talking about "diverging" as related to a particular turnout, and not what NYCT says is the diverging route according to the signals and how they run trains. The tangent leg of the turnout has no speed restriction. So if the geometry of the plant requires your train to leave tangent travel, you must slow according to the geometry of the turnout. ROAR |
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| (1328649) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Wed Dec 17 08:23:58 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Michael549 on Wed Dec 17 01:56:27 2014. I seem to remember that timer becoming more restrictive after a derailment in July 1997 further uptown (135 Street) that resulted in the loss of a four-car set of R44s. Part of a general tightening up of speed restrictions on the entire line.wayne |
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| (1328693) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Dec 17 13:27:13 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Michael549 on Wed Dec 17 01:56:27 2014. In the previous message there was the contention that trains using this storage track had to slow down to a reported 15mph or so.No, that's not what he's saying, if I am reading him correctly. He's saying that even trains not diverging onto the layup track have to slow down for the switches at either end. |
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| (1328886) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by CathedralPky on Thu Dec 18 14:16:10 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Dec 17 13:27:13 2014. terRAPIN, Exactly right. For example, the uptown express train audibly crosses switches at the same location, but does not have to slow down. |
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| (1328982) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 19 01:02:06 2014, in response to IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by CathedralPky on Wed Dec 17 01:17:39 2014. The tracks you refer to are passing siding. They serves a few purposes. Frequently, they are used to hold bad order trains for investigation and or repair. They are also used to stage special trains such as movie trains or museum trains, when VIPs may board at Columbus Circle. They also allow for some additional flexibility to run around stalled trains. The maximum speed that a train may pass over a given switch of determined by the switch number which is the ratio of the angle of divergence compared to the length measured at the frog of the switch. The higher the number, the faster you can pass over it. For example you might pass over a #6 switch at 10 MPH but a switch greater than #30 might be 80+ MPH. |
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| (1328990) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Fri Dec 19 06:57:38 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Michael549 on Wed Dec 17 01:56:27 2014. Isn't there a similar layup track between the express and local tracks for both directions on W 72 on the west side IRT? Is it long enough to lay up a train set? |
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| (1329009) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Dec 19 08:33:18 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by CathedralPky on Thu Dec 18 14:16:10 2014. terRAPIN, Exactly right.Thank you very much. It's shame that no one wants to address what you are actually asking nor admit that they initially misunderstood you. |
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| (1329010) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Dec 19 08:34:41 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 19 01:02:06 2014. That's not what he's asking though. He's not talking about the diverging move.Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding (1328693) |
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| (1329036) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 19 12:49:26 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Fulton Frank on Fri Dec 19 06:57:38 2014. Neither of those are long enough for a full length train. At one time, the revenue collector which was only 3 cars long would stage there to avoid blocking the road. |
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| (1329041) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Dec 19 13:17:33 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Dec 19 08:33:18 2014. CathedralPky - If I misunderstood you, I apologize.I attempted to answer your question with the information that I had available. I used to traveled over those tracks daily for 13 years on the way to and from Harlem, but I admit it has been a while. Just for information, plenty of A and D trains used to slow down for the 81st Street station well before these storage tracks were upgraded to allow entry from either direction in the 1980's. I believe but I'd have to check that slow down in speed was due to concerns about noise abatement on that section. In any case, Happy Holidays To All & To All A Good Night, Mike |
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| (1329080) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Fri Dec 19 16:06:46 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 19 12:49:26 2014. Ahhh the money train. |
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| (1329102) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 19 17:26:06 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Michael549 on Fri Dec 19 13:17:33 2014. Actually, even back in the days of the original IND signaling, the GT signals got progressively slower to insure that the trains would approach 59 St at a reasonable enough speed so that they would not overrun the station. Also, for some reason the tail switch that would enable N/B exp trains to be turned south was a facing point switch rather than a trailing point so that a N/B train would cross into the S/B exp track to turn back, contrary to normal practice. As a result, greater signal protection needed to be provided to protect such a train from having a head on with a S/B exp. |
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| (1329108) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Dec 19 18:52:15 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Fulton Frank on Fri Dec 19 16:06:46 2014. at 111st&lenox ave there is a long abandoned switchback/w/o tracks known as the lenox ave stub. |
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| (1329129) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Dec 20 00:30:03 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 19 12:49:26 2014. I've seen the trash pickup train hide there. |
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| (1329162) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 20 15:33:54 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Dec 19 18:52:15 2014. Where? I know that area of the IRT and there are no stub tracks anywhere along Lenox Av at all. The closest thing to a “spur” on Lenox itself is the middle track at 135 St which for many years was used to turn Lenox shuttles. There is a space for a spur approximately beneath the 103 St station on the Bway Line a bit before the Lenox Line turns east but that’s the only one that’s there. |
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| (1329171) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Dec 20 17:11:39 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 20 15:33:54 2014. I,m quoting from an old ERA bulletin on this.I have posted on this several times in the past. |
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| (1329202) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 20 21:58:28 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Dec 20 17:11:39 2014. I’ve been in the ER%A since 1959 and I don’t ever recall seeing anything about that in any issues of either Headlights or the Bulletin. The one N/O 96 St (under 103 St station) however I do recall. |
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| (1329203) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Sat Dec 20 22:00:11 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 20 21:58:28 2014. i am sorry but if possible can you clear up the possible things in that area about the 96 st area. Thanks |
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| (1329211) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sat Dec 20 22:32:30 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Michael549 on Wed Dec 17 01:56:27 2014. Both the downtown local and express have timers approaching that switch. The exp is a two shot timer for 35 mph slowing down to about 28-30 usually clears it not really too noticeable to the passenger. However the lcl track the timer is MUCH slower a one shot timer it is posted for 25 but in reality the T/O has to do about 12-15 to clear it. As to why it's so much slower was never told an explanation but just my theory is maybe bc the lcl track takes a curve out of the station then a short distance to the switch. So if a downtown train had to go into the spur on the lcl after 81st it would have to take 2 curves in a short distance so it's much safer to do at a slower speed. Downtown exp tracks are straight bf the switch. |
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| (1329212) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Dec 20 22:49:09 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 20 21:58:28 2014. in a few weeks I,ll dig up the article and post the date&year in was printed. |
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| (1329213) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Dec 20 22:51:39 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Union Tpke on Sat Dec 20 22:00:11 2014. I,m interested too. |
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| (1329217) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Dec 20 23:21:30 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 20 15:33:54 2014. From a previous message:"at 111st&lenox ave there is a long abandoned switchback/w/o tracks known as the lenox ave stub." Thanks Randyo, I was wondering about this, because I've ridden the both #2 and #3 trains for years/decades to & from Harlem and the Bronx - watching plenty of times from the front of the trains. As you said the middle track at 135th Street, and the area near 103rd Street north of the 96th Street station were the only places that I could think of. Happy Holidays Everybody, Mike |
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| (1329226) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 21 03:00:32 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Dec 20 22:49:09 2014. Thanks. I’d like to see that one because I know that part of the IRT quite well and there is nothing N/O 110/Lenox. There is a diamond Xover south of the station and the space for the spur near 103/Bway I mentioned bit nothing else. |
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| (1329228) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 21 03:02:30 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by ftgreeneg on Sat Dec 20 22:32:30 2014. It’s been a while since I’ve been up that way. When I was a M/M the lcl tk had no timers at all. |
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| (1329230) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Dec 21 03:07:38 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by randyo on Sun Dec 21 03:02:30 2014. There is now and it is slllooooowwwww. Downtown lcl tracks leaving 81st street. There's no wrapping out of that station. |
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| (1329244) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 21 08:55:04 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Dec 20 22:49:09 2014. in a few weeks I,ll dig up the article and post the date&year in was printed. Steve: You're getting far to old to be outside digging things up in the middle of winter. Although I have no idea why you would bury your subway archives in the back yard. The following information might be of use. The article that you referred to is "Abandoned and Unused Tracks and Tunnels of the IRT." It was written by the late David Rogoff and appears in the April and June 1964 issues of the New York Division Bulletin. In the chapter on Unused Trackage Space there is a reference to the "Lenox Stub." It was located north of the 96th Street - Broadway Station to the east of the Lenox Avenue Line tracks. It was in us possibly for storage or layups in the early days of the subway. The track was removed very early but the space remained for storage. A second article titled "Eighty Years of Subway Service to The Bronx" appears in the July, 1985 issue of The Bulletin. It was also written by Mr.Rogoff and published after his death. It was originally planned that the "West Side Branch" (today's Broadway Line) would be built as a two track line. After work had begun it was decided to expand the line to three tracks which caused a great deal of reconstruction. As part of this reconstruction a third track was added to the lower level north of 96th Street. (That is today's Lenox Avenue Line) to the east of the present tracks . This track was underneath the present northbound Broadway Line local track (BB3). It ran as far north as the point where the Lenox Avenue Line turns east off of Broadway. The stub connected to the northbound track at this point. Space was left at the south end for a switch but this may never have been installed. A third article titled "Lenox Avenue Line" by Mr.Bernard Linder appears in the August, 1990 issue of The Bulletin. There is a track map in this issue that shows the siding with connections at both ends with the caption, "appears on 8/12/03 drawing, omitted from later drawings. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1329265) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Dec 21 11:21:19 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 21 08:55:04 2014. they are buried in 76st. not my back yard.i,ve seen a photo of the expansion,it shows the walls of the subway removed and the street above it intack.have a merry Christmas old friend and a happy and safe new year. |
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| (1329273) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Dec 21 12:14:55 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 21 08:55:04 2014. pwn3d |
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| (1329276) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 21 12:49:35 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 21 08:55:04 2014. Steve: The best of the season to you and Cupcakes. Maybe I'll see you at Branford this year.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1329336) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Dec 21 18:13:31 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Dec 21 11:21:19 2014. "i,ve seen a photo of the expansion"- Must be quite a photo. Never knew that it was originally planned for two tracks, and then widened to three tracks. "Tunnelrat" wishing you and yours a Merry Christmas! I still might get cards out this year..... (heh,heh) |
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| (1329337) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Dec 21 18:20:27 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 21 08:55:04 2014. re: "Unused Trackage Space..."Lenox Stub." ...in use possibly for storage or layups in the early days ...track...removed very early.This stub could clearly be seen to the right of the northbound track, looking out the front window of a Bronx bound train. If there were caution or red signals, you moved slowly and could get a good view of it. This was one of the first back issues of the Bulletin that I bought (I didn't join until 1967). |
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| (1329364) | |
Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Dec 21 21:08:56 2014, in response to Re: IND Eighth Ave Line - 72nd/81st Street Siding, posted by Express Rider on Sun Dec 21 18:20:27 2014. it was used in the early days to lay up a train. |
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