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| Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs (1318966) | |
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Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 16 07:54:22 2014 Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First RunsThe IRT Livonia Avenue Line is extended from Pennsylvania Avenue to New Lots Avenue. Stations are opened at Van Siclen Avenue and New Lots Avenue. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 16 14:49:49 2014, in response to Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 16 07:54:22 2014. :) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Oct 16 20:52:03 2014, in response to Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 16 07:54:22 2014. I've always assumed that the Hi-V's never operated in regular revenue service, on the Brooklyn lines, since they were transferred to local routes in 1918 (when there were already a little under 900 Lo-V's operating), and the lines beyond Atlantic Ave. were opened in 1920.Would this be correct? Was there ever any recorded instances of Hi-V's in service on the New Lots or Nostrand Ave. Lines? It would be great to find photos of Hi-V's on the outer, elevated section of the New Lots line. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 16 23:21:16 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Express Rider on Thu Oct 16 20:52:03 2014. I've always assumed that the Hi-V's never operated in regular revenue service, on the Brooklyn lines, since they were transferred to local routes in 1918 (when there were already a little under 900 Lo-V's operating), and the lines beyond Atlantic Ave. were opened in 1920.The short answer is yes. Give me a day or two to provide some detail. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Oct 17 02:12:32 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Oct 16 23:21:16 2014. Thanks, and thank you in advance for your research. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:28:15 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Express Rider on Thu Oct 16 20:52:03 2014. The Hi-Vs pretty much ruled the Bway Exp until directly replaced by the R-21s and 22s. A few trains of Lo-Vs were needed to make rush hour service but late PMs, midnights and weekends the Lo-Vs on Bway were laid up solid and the Hi-Vs provided all the service. On weekends, for some reason, the south terminals of the Bway and West Farms services were swapped and Hi-Vs went to Flatbush. There were also incidents of a small number of Hi-Vs seeing service on Woodlawn just before they were retired from passenger service. |
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| (1319227) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 17 20:27:45 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:28:15 2014. Were the Gibbs cars pretty much placed at the end of trains? IIRC the standard practice was to have cars with manual doors at each end of a ten-car train, since the doors at the very ends weren't used. That way each conductor had to open and close one door manually in addition to working the rmote door controls. I read that those manual doors were flat out brutal. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 18 00:51:25 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:28:15 2014. Thanks.Maybe there should be a committee of several knowledgable people who can get together and write the IRT history that George Horn never finished; and was destroyed in his unfortunate house fire. I exchanged emails about IRT pre-war Hi-V local service, with an individual (who has written for the Bulletin), as it related to George Conrad's IRT photos, that Frank Pfuhler posted in his emails. He provided me with a summary of information that he knew, about Hi-V local service before WW II. So people who know various details of pre-war and earlier IRT operations are out there. Some of David Rogoff's construction histories of IRT extensions in Brooklyn, were either based on George Horn's research, or were going to be included in his history. Wonder who Rogoff's collection was left to? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 18 13:23:05 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 18 00:51:25 2014. Express Rider: HI-V's did indeed operate on the IRT Brooklyn Lines south of Atlantic Avenue. For many years they were they were the mainstay of the Broadway - 7th Avenue Express.The problem isn't so much a lack of material as a surplus of it that needs to be collated and them assembled into a cohesive narrative. At this remove in time we are dealing with events that occurred almost a hundred years ago and almost all of use have to rely on what others wrote. Why don't you e-mail me at irtredbirdr33@yahoo.com ? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 18 16:06:27 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 18 13:23:05 2014. Thanks for the info.will email you as requested. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 16:17:54 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 17 20:27:45 2014. Unmodified Gibbs cars had to be at the ends of the trains but in the mid 1930s, the last 150 or so Gibbs cars were converted to MUDC so that they could be used anywhere in the train. It was IRT policy to keep the Gibbs cars on the local lines since their vestibules were slightly smaller than those on later cars. By the mid 1930s, most of the Hedley motors were MUDC and ran on the Bway Exp leaving the more labor intensive Gibbs cars to do lcl service. By converting a number of Gibbs cars to MUDC the company was able to eliminate the extra C/Rs required to operate the doors and at the same time keep the Gibbs cars primarily on the lcls. After city takeover, It seems that police was ignored to some extent and I recall seeing a number of manual door Gibbs cars on the ends of the Bway exp trains. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 20:30:23 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 16:17:54 2014. How come the manual end doors were never converted on these cars, as well as the Composites? Was it money or the design of the car, itself? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sat Oct 18 21:13:02 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 20:30:23 2014. Just remember the Interborough was essentially broke after 1925 or so, and everything they did was on a 'as needed' basis. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 21:38:26 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 20:30:23 2014. I would suspect that the doors on the composites were not converted so that the weight could be kept down. In addition to having the trucks changed to reduce weight, new Lo-V control and brake equipment which was lighter in weight than Hi-V components they replaced was installed in the composites and it was probably felt that the addition of pneumatic door engined to the end doors would have added to the weight. For those who are unfamiliar, the Hi-V control and brake equipment removed from the composites was modified to Lo-V and installed in newly delivered steel car bodies which became the flivvers. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 23:18:32 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 21:38:26 2014. Were these equipment modifications the reason why they didn't like to mate with anyone else, except other flivvers? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sun Oct 19 00:06:18 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 23:18:32 2014. I think there was a lack of physical attraction also :P |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 19 02:05:17 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 23:18:32 2014. It wasn't that they didn't like to mate With any other type of car, it's that even though they were Lo-V, their control and brake systems were incompatible. All standard body Lo-Vs and Steinways as well as the WF cars had AMUE brakes while the flivvers retained the AMRE braking system of the Hi-Vs stepped down to low voltage operation. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Oct 19 02:20:41 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 19 02:05:17 2014. Given the differences, those are helluva differences. Thanks for the explanation! Now it all makes sense. Dogs and cats. :) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 19 03:38:01 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Oct 19 02:20:41 2014. Back when I first became seriously interested in the subway, joined the ERA and went on fantrips, I kept hearing people talk about "the flivvers." When I asked what they were, I was given the simple explanation, "Lo-V's with triple valve braking." The other details about them I learned much later. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Oct 19 08:49:15 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 18 23:18:32 2014. Were these equipment modifications the reason why they didn't like to mate with anyone else, except other flivvers?Elkeeper: The Flivvers were cantankerous creatures. They didn't play well with and they didn't play well with each other. Certain cars would only run well with certain other cars so they were usually kept in solid train sets. Its too bad that none of these were saved. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 19 10:02:29 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 19 03:38:01 2014. Many people referred to them as "converted Hi-Vs" but as I describe, it was more complicated than that. I had heard somewhere that the IRT did actually plan to convert itsHi-V fleet into flivvers, but that the flivvers themselves performed so poorly that it gave up on the idea. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 19 14:21:49 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 19 10:02:29 2014. Interesting! Thank you.But they never really were Hi-v's were they. They were originally designed as Low-V's, right, with, as you said, the control and braking systems adjusted (for lack of a better word) to work with the Lo-V system? I didn't know before that the control system and brakes had to be "stepped down" for low voltage operation. When you're given background at a Division meeting or fantrip, somegtimes it's done "on the fly," with no further details, whether that person knew them or not. Any idea what was done, to make AMRE & the control system compatible for Lo-V op. (I do know about the controller points being changed from Hi-V (12?) to Lo-V style) or is there a documnet you can refer me to? As I've said, though I don't have a technical background, this stuff fascinates me. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 19 16:36:31 2014, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - October 16, 1922 - The Book of First Runs, posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 19 14:21:49 2014. The Hi-V controllers removed from the composites had their internal workings adjusted from 12 point manual operation to 3 pint automatic operation and of course the 12 point ratchet on the controller top was removed in the process. All that was really necessary to make the brake system function on low voltage was to rewire the brake valves, triple valves and magnet valves. The same with the control system with the exception of the modification I mentioned. |
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