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| June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map (1313649) | |
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| (1313649) | |
June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Wed Sep 17 20:01:40 2014  |
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| (1313688) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by jabrams on Thu Sep 18 00:02:55 2014, in response to June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Sep 17 20:01:40 2014. If I am reading the map correctly, the 2nd Ave line appears to be built to IRT standards (connections in the Bronx), but I'm not sure about the connection to the "J" line, or what more TPH on the Brighton, Fulton lines have to do with it. |
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Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Sep 18 00:39:28 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by jabrams on Thu Sep 18 00:02:55 2014. The engineers seem to be confused. How could the line be connected to the IRT in the Bronx, yet go over the Manny B to connect through DeKalb to the BMT lines in Brooklyn??The extra TPH on Brighton are due to reducing Culver trains trough DeKalb by connecting the Culver to the IND -- which was later done. |
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| (1313698) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 01:11:20 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by jabrams on Thu Sep 18 00:02:55 2014. Not exactly..The BOT planned to shave back,and extend platforms on the IRT Pelham line for new SAS services... which was built to "Triboro Subway, wider tunnel" clearances, but operated using smaller narrower equipment. The plan first had SAS ten foot wide trains operating along with the IRT nine foot wide trains along the line,but that died due to Union opposition, safety concerns,and poor planning. Bottom line is the BOT wanted to move the Pelham line to the IND Division by routing the new trunk to it,and failed. |
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| (1313703) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 18 01:43:09 2014, in response to June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Sep 17 20:01:40 2014. The map raises a lot of questions. Looks like connections with both White Plains Road and Pelham, not to mention the Dyre ave line. No Webster Ave (or 3rd Ave) subway in the Bronx, unlike the original plans.I also noticed a (presumed) local connection to the Nassau St line, but no red or blue lines to indicated how far that service would go there. |
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| (1313706) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 01:53:37 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by italianstallion on Thu Sep 18 00:39:28 2014. A few of the proposals were actually built... but others that were equally important were not,and still are needed today.Worth st to Brooklyn South side,connecting to the Eastern Division. New Queens capacity trunk route,using the 63rd st subway,part LIRR row,and some highway air rights. Utica avenue to Ave-U. Ft Hamilton Pkwy subway to 86th St,connecting from the Culver and West End routes. 34th st subway to the far west side,via Second avenue. A new Bronx route to replace the Third ave El. Those are a few that were planned...PAID FOR by the TAX PAYERS, and NEVER built. |
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| (1313711) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 02:04:00 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 18 01:43:09 2014. The SA$ plan had the line terminating at 149th st/Third ave,connecting to both West Farms and Third ave Els. |
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| (1313728) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 18 08:15:43 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by italianstallion on Thu Sep 18 00:39:28 2014. I believe the plan was to adjust the Bronx portions to BMT/IND specifications. The Dual Contract portions of those lines were (and are) adjustable in this fashion. |
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| (1313729) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by MR RT on Thu Sep 18 08:16:10 2014, in response to June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Sep 17 20:01:40 2014. Very interesting ... thanks for sharing ! |
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| (1313814) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 16:09:18 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 18 08:15:43 2014. Correct. The Upper portion of the Wh Pl Rd Line and the Pelham Line as well as Dyre can accommodate BMT/IND sized cars since the IRT lines were built to dual contract specs and the NYW&B was a commuter RR. |
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| (1313816) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 16:11:17 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 01:11:20 2014. I never heard about joint IND/IRT operation on Pelham. The original plan was to remove the Pelham Line from theIRT entirely and make it an IND line. |
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| (1313818) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 16:12:38 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 16:09:18 2014. All of which should have been made into B Division routes. |
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| (1313827) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Sep 18 16:50:20 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 16:11:17 2014. Something about "recapturing"? |
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| (1313828) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 16:55:29 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 16:11:17 2014. Sure you have..the IRT cars were suppose to be fitted with extension plates. |
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| (1313838) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 18 17:35:26 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 16:09:18 2014. Would the existing structures have been able to handle the heavier BMT/IND cars, or would they have to be upgraded? |
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| (1313843) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Thu Sep 18 17:45:42 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 01:53:37 2014. Cudahy quotes on TA official to the effect of, "Yeah, we would have had a nice shiny 2nd Ave Subway, but the rest of the system wouln't have been worth the dynamite to blow it up with!"Something like that.... |
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| (1313870) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Thu Sep 18 19:53:57 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by r17-6599 on Thu Sep 18 16:50:20 2014. 'Recapturing' was a term used in the Dual Contracts. In less than 500 words, neither the city or the private companies could afford by themselves the massive amount of money needed for the project, so the city put up about half the monies through issuing bonds. This was the primary financing of segments like the Upper Lex and 7th Ave IRT lines, as well as the Fourth Ave BMT. Since the city had paid for them, the contracts allowed the city to 'recapture' them for token fees rom the private companies.Once Unification came about, the term was redundant, as the city owned it all. |
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| (1313871) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Sep 18 19:58:46 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Thu Sep 18 19:53:57 2014. Thanx Lou. I saw the term somewhere and it was in reference to the IRT WP Rd line.joe |
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| (1313872) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Sep 18 20:06:09 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 02:04:00 2014. In reading Raskin's book, there was a plan to have a major "union station" at 149th street. Looks like, if that plan had developed, I would have spent a lot of time there in my "formative" years.R17 |
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| (1313873) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 20:11:20 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 18 17:35:26 2014. They were built to dual contract standards so they can handle anything. |
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| (1313874) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 20:14:45 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 16:55:29 2014. Then how would they have operated on Lex or any other IRT lines that they might end up being assigned to? |
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| (1313877) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 18 20:27:52 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 20:11:20 2014. The Gibbs Hi-Vs were on the heavy side, weren't they? |
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| (1313904) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 19 02:59:32 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 18 20:27:52 2014. Probably a bit heavier than later IRT cars, but I think the BMT D types were even heavier. |
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| (1313916) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 19 06:51:38 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by italianstallion on Thu Sep 18 00:39:28 2014. And, where would IRT trains coming from Manhattan have terminated? |
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| (1313941) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Sep 19 10:18:12 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 18 20:14:45 2014. When the Q cars operated on the Myrtle Avenue El, didn't they have extension plates so that they could stop at the stations from Central Av to Metropolitan? Presumably their floors were an inch or two above the platform level, so that they could still stop at Jay St thru Broadway. Do the newer cars also have floors slightly above the platforms?Bob |
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| (1313943) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Sep 19 10:31:53 2014, in response to June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Sep 17 20:01:40 2014. June 16th, 1950? I was one day old. I always knew my birth would portend great things, or at least ideas for great things.LOL Bob |
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| (1313996) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 19 15:06:52 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by GIS Man on Fri Sep 19 10:18:12 2014. With current ADA requirements, having threshold plates far enough above platform level to clear would be unacceptable. |
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| (1314024) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Sep 19 16:53:19 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 02:04:00 2014. So, the Pelham line would be connected and modified as an express and the locals would terminate at 149th St? |
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| (1314103) | |
Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 20 04:28:28 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Sep 19 16:53:19 2014. One branch of the SAS would have terminated at the 149th st 3rd avenue Hub,where the elevated line and the IRT West Farms lines converged.The intention of this route was to head over to Boston Road,practicality removing the WF El as far as 180th st,taking over the White Plains and Sure lines. The SAS Main line would have come in Under the Pelham lines 149th st station,then rise in elevation to link with the route,taking it over completely as a B division service...while Lexington ave trains terminated there on the upper level. |
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Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 20 15:13:13 2014, in response to Re: June 1950 - Proposed Second Avenue Trunk Line map, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 20 04:28:28 2014. Would it have gone up 3rd Ave and headed north on Boston Road? |
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